Brad Wardell's views about technology, politics, religion, world affairs, and all sorts of politically incorrect topics.
A look at the philosophies behind two great cultures
Published on March 4, 2004 By Draginol In International

Blogs occasionally seem to have a Europe vs. United States mentality. I've seen it since the beginning of blogging. Why is that? Why is so much scorn reserved for Americans from Europeans? Why is such contempt shown for Europeans? I think I have the answer: Drastically different philosophies on life.

Europeans are focused on fairness. Americans are focused on freedom.  Europeans look at Americans as a bunch of uncultured barbarians running amok in their country and worse, through the world spreading their vulgar culture around. Americans see Europeans as a bunch of sissies whose people meekly except regulations and massive taxation in an effort to make life more "fair" for everyone.  The American response would typically be "Hey, life ain't fair!" to which the European might answer "But it should be!" And so it goes from there.

But because so many Europeans like individual Americans (and vice versa) the argument usually gets shifted to the "administrations" of the various countries.  The typical American is a nice guy right? It's not his fault that the United States is full of gun toting, capital punishment supporting, SUV driving, CO2 producing zealots. What do you expect with Bush in charge? And "Old Europe" is a mess not because of the typical Belgian or German or Frenchman, it's cynical and corrupt politicians like Chirac or Schroeder that make it seem so crummy to us.

What both fail to realize that in a democracy, the people get what they want. Sometimes it takes awhile but eventually their cultures will get a government that represents them. Some people are aghast that the United States has capital punishment. But an overwhelming majority of Americans supports capital punishment. So we elect leaders who support it. Both Kerry and Bush support capital punishment. They have to. They wouldn't get elected otherwise. But why do Americans support capital punishment? Because we're a bunch of "Cowboys"? No. It's because we believe in having a great deal of freedom in our lives but we also believe that freedom comes with a price -- personal responsibility.

Great freedom requiring personal responsibility is one of the cornerstones of American culture. And it is a relatively foreign concept to Europeans (not personal responsibility but the relationship between the two).  We pretty much allow people to do what they want here.  You can own a gun with few exceptions. There are few regulations in being an entrepreneur.  But at the same time, there are few regulations to keep a company from simply bombing on its own.  People in the United States aren't taxed very much relatively speaking. They're free to make decisions on how they want to spend the money they earn. But on the other side of the coin, they also are free to make poor choices and end up in the gutter.

I don't mean this as a criticism of Europe but Europeans have never had the kinds of freedoms Americans have. Even today. It was, after all, a big reason why so many Europeans came to the United States in the first place. The US government is formed on the basis of the federal government essentially providing a handful of essential services. It's actually the weakest central government in the industrialized world in terms of its domestic power. But Europeans have not demanded the kinds of freedoms Americans want. A European might correctly point out that too much freedom leads to chaos and anarchy. And that Europeans have chosen to pull back a bit from the brink that Americans seem so readily to jump over in order to try to create a more just society.

Remember, the French revolution cry was not freedom or death as it was in the United States. It was split amongst 3 principles: liberty, equality, fraternity. Much of "old Europe" could be described in this way. The government exists to help make things more fair -- more equal. It's not fair for some people to be incredibly rich while others are incredibly poor. A European would look at the gap between the richest Americans and the poorest Americans as evidence that the American system isn't working. An American would look at the same evidence and point out that it is working as designed. The only concern Americans would have is if the rich got rich from cheating the system in some way. Americans, generally, do not envy the rich because they believe they have a shot at being one of them if they play their cards right. And even if they don't, odds are they'll end up doing pretty well.

The descendants of Europe who live in the United States have a significantly better standard of living than anywhere else in the world. And the American system works so well that descendents from Africa have the highest standard of living of any people with African heritage in the world -- despite having been slaves only a bit over a century ago. But there's a catch (isn't there always?) The poorest Americans live pretty darn poorly compared to people in similar situations in Europe. If life were an obstacle course where 90% of the people were able to compete it and 10% didn't, the 90% in the US are rewarded far more than the 90% in Europe. But at the same time, the 10% who can't do it suffer more in the US than they do in Europe. So which path do you take?

As an American, I've been instilled with its cultural values. So I prefer freedom to fairness. I have sympathy for those who haven't been able to make the cut in American society but I also don't want to see our freedoms further eroded in order to prop them up. I don't like the way things are in "old Europe". My views aren't shared by all Americans. But they are shared by most Americans. And vice versa in Europe. And the result of democracy in action (or representative government if you're anal retentive) is that the system is set up to reflect our values -- just like the French and Germans and Belgians and so on have governments that reflect theirs. And that's a good thing.


Comments (Page 10)
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on Oct 16, 2008

Until someone can post a link to refute my points, then they stand.

Again, the number you think is the average wages for the US means something else.

As for the other numbers, we have already refuted them. It just seems you are impervious to, well, refutations.

The WHO ranking is, as I explained, based on how close a system is to the European standard of fairness. To take that rankin as proof that the European standard is better is silly. You'd need statistics that show objective benefits rather than ideological closeness for that.

The average wages comparison you do is bogus since you compare full-time workers' average wages in the UK to a number that is NOT the average wages for any group in the US.

Your public debt comparison ignores external debt.

Minimum wage is a definition, not a statistic.

 

Frankly, you seem to be the most ignorant idiot I have met here in a while, and it has nothing to do with you being against McCain or anti-American. MOST advocates of Europe are cleverer than you and know that to compare average wages you need two numbers that actually represent average wages.

 

on Oct 16, 2008

(spam removed by moderator - it's rude to keep reposting the same comment over and over)

on Oct 16, 2008

Average wage index is what both the UK and the USA use

Use for what? It's not a statistic. It's a definition.

I assume that both governments use such a number as threshold for social security taxes. But since the number is CHOSEN by government (by definiting an upper limit and calculating the average of the rest), it is a useless number for statistical purposes.

Incidentally, the number given by the UK government is _NOT_ an average wage index. I don't know how the British social security system operates but it would surprise me if they cut off social security taxes at the same point as the US. And even if they did the numbers would still be meaningless because they don't tell us what percentage of workers earn more than that limit. (Not to mention the problem that the average wage on the UK site is for full-time workers, not all workers.)

Don't you get it?

You are comparing the average wages of _British full-time workers_ to a number that does NOT represent the average wages of any group.

I gave you the average wages for both UK and US, including source. US was higher.

But please, feel superior. It's just that everybody can see that you don't know what you are talking about.

 

on Oct 16, 2008

"DashingPrince",

How much more than the UK average salary do you make?

 

on Oct 16, 2008

Until someone can post a link to refute my points, then they stand.

Why?  You already posted the links that refute your statements.

LOL. Clearly the stats posted caused an uproar amongst anti English right wing trolls. Well I will not apologise for that.

Again, where?  There are no trolls here, nor anyone trashing england.  Why are you so paranoid?  Show us where anyone has said (since this thread was re-opened) anything derogatory about england?

Try again McCain fans.

beyond paranoia?  Brad has written several articles on why he does not like McCain and will not vote for him.  YOu can peruse the comments on this site and see my sentiments are very close, and only an act of God will compel me to vote for him (I will not completely rule it out, but 10% is in the slim chance category).  And Leauki is not American.  I think you are reading the wrong blog before posting comments, because your comments have no basis in reality.

on Oct 16, 2008

And Leauki is not American.

But I occasionally think about trying to become one. Ironically that is because I would earn more money in the US and be able to buy a house for less than here.

I have never even been in America, or anywhere outside Europe and the two Asian countries I keep writing about.

 

on Oct 16, 2008

But I occasionally think about trying to become one. Ironically that is because I would earn more money in the US and be able to buy a house for less than here.

I would be honored to have such an enlightened person such as you as a fellow citizen in my country. I hate to think you would have to go thru all the "BS" that LW's hubby has been going thru just to be a citizen. But you are welcome to try and endure it.

on Oct 16, 2008

beyond paranoia? Brad has written several articles on why he does not like McCain and will not vote for him. YOu can peruse the comments on this site and see my sentiments are very close, and only an act of God will compel me to vote for him (I will not completely rule it out, but 10% is in the slim chance category). And Leauki is not American. I think you are reading the wrong blog before posting comments, because your comments have no basis in reality.

DashingPrince seems like a suitable name for this blogger since he seems to be dashing into these articles without knowing what he is commenting about and seems to be a Prince at it leaning to King of dashing in without knowing.

on Oct 16, 2008

I would be honored to have such an enlightened person such as you as a fellow citizen in my country.

Thank you.

Within the next two years, I think, the final decision will be made.

 

on Oct 16, 2008

  The British and US governments use the same average wage index as I have shown and told you. Making arguements that have already been refuted won't wash with me, sorry.

  The stats posted stand, anti Englishness,  or right wing trolling is indeed all you chaps were here for.

  In your last few posts not one link was posted.

  I guess just as the service based economy has won over the old industrial economies then so has freedom and fairness of the UK won over freedom and cruelty of the USA.

  I'll take this as a victory.

on Oct 16, 2008

(removed by moderator - reposting the same comment over and over doesn't make what you say accurate. Address what others have said rather than covering your ears and bellowing what you said before. It's also extremely rude.)

on Oct 16, 2008

Dashingprince


  LOL. Clearly the stats posted caused an uproar amongst anti English right wing trolls. Well I will not apologise for that.

 LOL.  It's pretty well known around here that I'm an anglophile.  

GDP is one of the most objective statistics there is.  You divide that by the population to get an idea of how wealthy the population is.  That's how it's done.

The US is wealthier than UK. Anyone who has spent any serious time in both can tell you that. 

Does that make the US "better" (or "ahead") of UK? No.  Europe to a greater extent and Britain to a lesser extent have different priorities.  In Europe, people vacation much more. There are more social safety nets. There is universal health insurance. There is a much more "equitable" revenue distribution system.  

In short, things are more "fair" in Europe than in the US.

But in the US, the values are different. Individualism and freedom are more highly prized. We choose not to vacation as much, we choose to focus more on producing wealth and taking individual responsibility for our own lives.  

It's not that one is better than the other, that's subjective. It is that the two are very different.


  Until someone can post a link to refute my points, then they stand.

Oh look, we have a debate referree. lol.

 

on Oct 16, 2008

DashingPrince, quit spamming my comments area with the same comment.  Reposting the same stuff that others have refuted doesn't suddenly make it true.  

If you can't control yourself, I'll remove you.

on Oct 16, 2008

Dashingprince


  The British and US governments use the same average wage index as I have shown and told you. Making arguements that have already been refuted won't wash with me, sorry.
  The stats posted stand, anti Englishness,  or right wing trolling is indeed all you chaps were here for.
  In your last few posts not one link was posted.
  I guess just as the service based economy has won over the old industrial economies then so has freedom and fairness of the UK won over freedom and cruelty of the USA.
  I'll take this as a victory.

Well good, maybe now you can wander off and let the adults continue their discussion.  In fact, let me help you out the door.

on Oct 16, 2008

In fact, let me help you out the door.

You know, the one major downside to blogging online compared to chatting face to face is that when someone gets helped "out the door", we are left to our imagination to picture this or sometimes an image like the one below can be used to spark the imagination, but could never replace actaully seeing the person being shown the door.

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