Brad Wardell's views about technology, politics, religion, world affairs, and all sorts of politically incorrect topics.
A look at the philosophies behind two great cultures
Published on March 4, 2004 By Draginol In International

Blogs occasionally seem to have a Europe vs. United States mentality. I've seen it since the beginning of blogging. Why is that? Why is so much scorn reserved for Americans from Europeans? Why is such contempt shown for Europeans? I think I have the answer: Drastically different philosophies on life.

Europeans are focused on fairness. Americans are focused on freedom.  Europeans look at Americans as a bunch of uncultured barbarians running amok in their country and worse, through the world spreading their vulgar culture around. Americans see Europeans as a bunch of sissies whose people meekly except regulations and massive taxation in an effort to make life more "fair" for everyone.  The American response would typically be "Hey, life ain't fair!" to which the European might answer "But it should be!" And so it goes from there.

But because so many Europeans like individual Americans (and vice versa) the argument usually gets shifted to the "administrations" of the various countries.  The typical American is a nice guy right? It's not his fault that the United States is full of gun toting, capital punishment supporting, SUV driving, CO2 producing zealots. What do you expect with Bush in charge? And "Old Europe" is a mess not because of the typical Belgian or German or Frenchman, it's cynical and corrupt politicians like Chirac or Schroeder that make it seem so crummy to us.

What both fail to realize that in a democracy, the people get what they want. Sometimes it takes awhile but eventually their cultures will get a government that represents them. Some people are aghast that the United States has capital punishment. But an overwhelming majority of Americans supports capital punishment. So we elect leaders who support it. Both Kerry and Bush support capital punishment. They have to. They wouldn't get elected otherwise. But why do Americans support capital punishment? Because we're a bunch of "Cowboys"? No. It's because we believe in having a great deal of freedom in our lives but we also believe that freedom comes with a price -- personal responsibility.

Great freedom requiring personal responsibility is one of the cornerstones of American culture. And it is a relatively foreign concept to Europeans (not personal responsibility but the relationship between the two).  We pretty much allow people to do what they want here.  You can own a gun with few exceptions. There are few regulations in being an entrepreneur.  But at the same time, there are few regulations to keep a company from simply bombing on its own.  People in the United States aren't taxed very much relatively speaking. They're free to make decisions on how they want to spend the money they earn. But on the other side of the coin, they also are free to make poor choices and end up in the gutter.

I don't mean this as a criticism of Europe but Europeans have never had the kinds of freedoms Americans have. Even today. It was, after all, a big reason why so many Europeans came to the United States in the first place. The US government is formed on the basis of the federal government essentially providing a handful of essential services. It's actually the weakest central government in the industrialized world in terms of its domestic power. But Europeans have not demanded the kinds of freedoms Americans want. A European might correctly point out that too much freedom leads to chaos and anarchy. And that Europeans have chosen to pull back a bit from the brink that Americans seem so readily to jump over in order to try to create a more just society.

Remember, the French revolution cry was not freedom or death as it was in the United States. It was split amongst 3 principles: liberty, equality, fraternity. Much of "old Europe" could be described in this way. The government exists to help make things more fair -- more equal. It's not fair for some people to be incredibly rich while others are incredibly poor. A European would look at the gap between the richest Americans and the poorest Americans as evidence that the American system isn't working. An American would look at the same evidence and point out that it is working as designed. The only concern Americans would have is if the rich got rich from cheating the system in some way. Americans, generally, do not envy the rich because they believe they have a shot at being one of them if they play their cards right. And even if they don't, odds are they'll end up doing pretty well.

The descendants of Europe who live in the United States have a significantly better standard of living than anywhere else in the world. And the American system works so well that descendents from Africa have the highest standard of living of any people with African heritage in the world -- despite having been slaves only a bit over a century ago. But there's a catch (isn't there always?) The poorest Americans live pretty darn poorly compared to people in similar situations in Europe. If life were an obstacle course where 90% of the people were able to compete it and 10% didn't, the 90% in the US are rewarded far more than the 90% in Europe. But at the same time, the 10% who can't do it suffer more in the US than they do in Europe. So which path do you take?

As an American, I've been instilled with its cultural values. So I prefer freedom to fairness. I have sympathy for those who haven't been able to make the cut in American society but I also don't want to see our freedoms further eroded in order to prop them up. I don't like the way things are in "old Europe". My views aren't shared by all Americans. But they are shared by most Americans. And vice versa in Europe. And the result of democracy in action (or representative government if you're anal retentive) is that the system is set up to reflect our values -- just like the French and Germans and Belgians and so on have governments that reflect theirs. And that's a good thing.


Comments (Page 9)
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on Oct 14, 2008

Well, he could have sat there and waited for the dollar to fall so an income in pound would be relatively higher; but I suspect Google or an old link

Hehehehe.  I remember getting 4 Deutschmarks per dollar!  I guess the US has just about withered away since the that is ancient history.

on Oct 14, 2008

 I remember getting 4 Deutschmarks per dollar!

The current situation is very bad for European exports. The EU and especially Germany are export-oriented economies, this current situation will eventually affect Europe negatively.

 

on Oct 14, 2008

Just as an aside, and to the point of the article (since it predated my tenure here at JU), I have to agree with Brad.  What Brad is saying is not "that is bad and we are good", just that we are very different.  ANd something I have maintained for many years (having had the great opportunity to live in Europe for a few years) after examining why we see the world differently.

on Oct 15, 2008

  DR Guy and this leauki thing.

  The government gives a median wage in each country usually based on the same method, now if you tewo disagree then you have to show where your government got it wrong and what you think the average wage should be.

  Britians won't be bellow the government median so your job is to show me a link with that shows usa wages above the UK.

  Once you do this I will take back my "anti English troll" accusations, but not until.

  The average wage index is what BOTH the UK and USA governments use to work out average wage. I am guessing you guys will not be able to back up your claims that american workers are not being under paid.

   Ouch I found another stat that will show just how underpaid US workers are...

  UK average hours worked per year...1652...av wage $42,000

  US average working hours per year...1777...av wage $38,00

  ...wikipedia average working hours page... [ I can't post links for some reason]

  Ouch, the hard working people of america are indeed being fleeced by big companies.

  Oh and in the UK we get 4.8 weeks paid leave per year, the USA usually has 9 days at most.

  The right wing are simply fooling americans into thinking they are rich while paying them far less than Europeans.

  No wonder more north ameircans have moved to Europe in the last 5 years than vice versa.

 

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_time

on Oct 15, 2008

  WWII.

  North america did help the UK as did the soviet union but only when they were attacked. The UK had to buy equipment from north america to help the europeans and soviets fight hitler, the americans gave nothing.

  If the UK had sided hitler or lost the Battle of Britain then the americans would have gone under or done a deal with hitler. Either way the brave stand of the British is the main reason the world has freedom today.

  Freedoms.

  Could someone explain what freedoms US citizens have that UK ones don't?

  In the UK we have a guarantee of accomodation and as we invented the free market we can start businesses at will.

  All I can think of is that yanks can own guns which came from the English bill of rights but the British over turned this stupid law.

  In the UK we get health care as a hum right, thats important.

on Oct 15, 2008

UK vs USA

The UK is ten years ahead of the USA.

UK

Average wage... $41,165
Average hours worked per year...1652
Average wage per hour worked...$24.91
Minimum wage...$21,262
Paid holiday per year...4.8 weeks
Number of people sleeping rough short term...487
Number of people sleeping rough long term...0
Gun deaths per 100,000 people...0.41
National debt...43%
WHO ranking...18th

USA

Average wage... $38,651
Average hours worked per year...1777
Average wage per hour worked...$21.75
Minimum wage...$12,168
Paid holiday per year...0 to 9 days
Number of people sleeping rough short term...1.5 million
Number of people sleeping rough long term...860,000
Gun deaths per 100,000 people...14.24
National debt...61%
WHO ranking...37th


http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=285
http://www.ssa.gov/OACT/COLA/AWI.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_time
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minimum_wages_by_country
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_public_debt
http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html

 

  That should end this post. Can we close this post now please?

on Oct 16, 2008

The government gives a median wage in each country usually based on the same method, now if you tewo disagree then you have to show where your government got it wrong and what you think the average wage should be.

Yes, but that doesn't mean that you can take any number published by the American government and declare it the "average wage". You are still using the average wage index, aren't you?

The second point baffles me. I already gave the correct average wage for the US and UK with source. What's the problem?

 

on Oct 16, 2008

http://www.ssa.gov/OACT/COLA/AWI.html

You are still using the average wage index, even after being told that it is NOT the same as "average wage" and why.

 

That should end this post. Can we close this post now please?

Sure. I think it is pretty clear that you don't know what you are talking about. Why else would you keep confusing the AWI with average wage and ignore external debt as given by your own sources?

 

The UK is ten years ahead of the USA.

With the qualifiers that that conclusion is based on comparing the average wage of British full-time workers to a number that is not the average wage of any group and that you have to ignore external debts of the two countries.

 

on Oct 16, 2008

WHO ranking

This one is funny. You have to read the report to find out what the numbers mean. Turns out the WHO used several measurements and the number is based on the individual results.

"Responsiveness"

US leads.

"Fairness of financial contribution"

US trails. Note that this category is completely subjective. The WHO just decided what constitutes "fairness" and that fairness was a positive aspect. But obviously depending on the definition of fairness, "fairness" can be good or bad.

"Overall Level of Health"

They do not give individual results.

"Distribution of Health in the Populations"

No individual results given.

"Distribution of Financing"

This is based on where the resources for the health system come from. It is again subjective, as the WHO decides what constitutes a "good" source for resources and what constitutes a "bad" source.

 

Looks to me like our British friend has (again) failed to read the source he was referring to. And it looks to me like the US win in objective categories and are then downgraded because of WHO opinion.

 

Comparing the US to the UK by referring to someone's _opinion_ seems odd to me. Note that not all the categories are opinion. Some can be tested scientifically. But what constitutes "fair" and what is "good" is entirely subjective. If the WHO had used American opinion on fairness and good rather than European opinion, the US would have led the field. (I assume it is obvious that the US and Europe disagree on what constitutes a fair system?)

 

on Oct 16, 2008

The government gives a median wage in each country usually based on the same method, now if you tewo disagree then you have to show where your government got it wrong and what you think the average wage should be.

We already did.  You were not using average, but median (a bad number since it does not represent average, but middle), and not even the US median.  Why do you refuse to understand the basic flaw of your logic?  When it was shown to you?  That is your problem I guess.  But I will state again.  This article has nothing to do with "who is better" but who is different, and why.

It appears that you seem to think you must defend a point not made, probably out of some misdirected guilt about why you think Britian is worse.

on Oct 16, 2008

Why do you refuse to understand the basic flaw of your logic?  When it was shown to you?

I was baffled when he came back to us citing the average wage index AGAIN. It seems like he totally ignored, perhaps bever even saw, everything that was said about it.

 

on Oct 16, 2008

UK: GDP per capita $35k.

USA: GDP per capita $46k

Unless there are robots or other non-humans in the mix, this is the definitive objective measure of how wealthy the population of a nation state is. Everything else is spin.

Most of the other statistics DashingPrince gives demonstrate that he believes fairness trumps freedom which was the point of the article - Europeans value fairness.

Otherwise, he wouldn't have listed things as minimum wage or the number of people "sleeping rough" as his "proof" that the UK is "10 years ahead".

Incidentally, the statistics for UK on "sleeping rough" are hilarious. UK apparently has "0" chronically homeless people. What do they have? Homeless people catchers patrolling the streets of London snapping up homeless people and taking them to human kennels?

 

on Oct 16, 2008

Unless there are robots or other non-humans in the mix, this is the definitive objective measure of how wealthy the population of a nation state is. Everything else is spin.

GDP/P doesn't include wealth created by unpaid labour, like stay-at-home wives etc.. It does show how much people can spent though.

 

Most of the other statistics DashingPrince gives demonstrate that he believes fairness trumps freedom which was the point of the article - Europeans value fairness.

I myself value fairness, but do not always agree with European definitions of "fairness". (For example for many Europeans it is "fair" when I pay taxes to support those who can work but reject jobs.)

I think the statistics "DashingPrince" gave simply show that he doesn't understand that average wage index and average wage are not the same thing and that the world simply isn't complex enough for two numbers with similar names to exist.

 

on Oct 16, 2008

  LOL. Clearly the stats posted caused an uproar amongst anti English right wing trolls. Well I will not apologise for that.

  Until someone can post a link to refute my points, then they stand.

  Average wage index is what both the UK and the USA use, so it is the only sensible and fair way to define stats. We will stick with average wage index as GDP PPP is NEVER used by any government.

  0 long term homeless in the UK is because the UK does indeed have groups of people walking the streets offering homeless people accomodation it is a human right in the UK for every citizen to have accomodation, you really are a bunch of idiots.

   Basically the USA is an average European nation with a big population, thats all.

  Ten years behind the UK.

  UK [freedom and fairness] ....vs....  USA [freedom and poverty, unequality, low wages, over worked, crime ridden, obese, poor health.]

  Sorry but the personal insults won't win over government stats.

  Try again McCain fans.

 

on Oct 16, 2008

UK vs USA

The UK is ten years ahead of the USA.

UK

Average wage... $41,165
Average hours worked per year...1652
Average wage per hour worked...$24.91
Minimum wage...$21,262
Paid holiday per year...4.8 weeks
Number of people sleeping rough short term...487
Number of people sleeping rough long term...0
Gun deaths per 100,000 people...0.41
National debt...43%
WHO ranking...18th
Number of people dieing of cancer per 100,000 per year...253.5
Child maltreatment deaths per 100,000 children...0.4
Universities > Top 100 (per capita)...9th
Education Science...4th
Education Maths...7th
Education English...7th

USA

Average wage... $38,651
Average hours worked per year...1777
Average wage per hour worked...$21.75
Minimum wage...$12,168
Paid holiday per year...0 to 9 days
Number of people sleeping rough short term...1.5 million
Number of people sleeping rough long term...860,000
Gun deaths per 100,000 people...14.24
National debt...61%
WHO ranking...37th
Education Science...14th
Education Maths...18th
Education English...15th
Number of people dieing of cancer per 100,000 per year...321.9
Child maltreatment deaths per 100,000 children...2.2Education
Universities > Top 100 (per capita)...13th
Education Science...14th
Education Maths...18th
Education English...15th


http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=285
http://www.ssa.gov/OACT/COLA/AWI.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_time
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minimum_wages_by_country
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_public_debt
http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html
http://www.nationmaster.com/index.php

 

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