Brad Wardell's views about technology, politics, religion, world affairs, and all sorts of politically incorrect topics.
A look at the philosophies behind two great cultures
Published on March 4, 2004 By Draginol In International

Blogs occasionally seem to have a Europe vs. United States mentality. I've seen it since the beginning of blogging. Why is that? Why is so much scorn reserved for Americans from Europeans? Why is such contempt shown for Europeans? I think I have the answer: Drastically different philosophies on life.

Europeans are focused on fairness. Americans are focused on freedom.  Europeans look at Americans as a bunch of uncultured barbarians running amok in their country and worse, through the world spreading their vulgar culture around. Americans see Europeans as a bunch of sissies whose people meekly except regulations and massive taxation in an effort to make life more "fair" for everyone.  The American response would typically be "Hey, life ain't fair!" to which the European might answer "But it should be!" And so it goes from there.

But because so many Europeans like individual Americans (and vice versa) the argument usually gets shifted to the "administrations" of the various countries.  The typical American is a nice guy right? It's not his fault that the United States is full of gun toting, capital punishment supporting, SUV driving, CO2 producing zealots. What do you expect with Bush in charge? And "Old Europe" is a mess not because of the typical Belgian or German or Frenchman, it's cynical and corrupt politicians like Chirac or Schroeder that make it seem so crummy to us.

What both fail to realize that in a democracy, the people get what they want. Sometimes it takes awhile but eventually their cultures will get a government that represents them. Some people are aghast that the United States has capital punishment. But an overwhelming majority of Americans supports capital punishment. So we elect leaders who support it. Both Kerry and Bush support capital punishment. They have to. They wouldn't get elected otherwise. But why do Americans support capital punishment? Because we're a bunch of "Cowboys"? No. It's because we believe in having a great deal of freedom in our lives but we also believe that freedom comes with a price -- personal responsibility.

Great freedom requiring personal responsibility is one of the cornerstones of American culture. And it is a relatively foreign concept to Europeans (not personal responsibility but the relationship between the two).  We pretty much allow people to do what they want here.  You can own a gun with few exceptions. There are few regulations in being an entrepreneur.  But at the same time, there are few regulations to keep a company from simply bombing on its own.  People in the United States aren't taxed very much relatively speaking. They're free to make decisions on how they want to spend the money they earn. But on the other side of the coin, they also are free to make poor choices and end up in the gutter.

I don't mean this as a criticism of Europe but Europeans have never had the kinds of freedoms Americans have. Even today. It was, after all, a big reason why so many Europeans came to the United States in the first place. The US government is formed on the basis of the federal government essentially providing a handful of essential services. It's actually the weakest central government in the industrialized world in terms of its domestic power. But Europeans have not demanded the kinds of freedoms Americans want. A European might correctly point out that too much freedom leads to chaos and anarchy. And that Europeans have chosen to pull back a bit from the brink that Americans seem so readily to jump over in order to try to create a more just society.

Remember, the French revolution cry was not freedom or death as it was in the United States. It was split amongst 3 principles: liberty, equality, fraternity. Much of "old Europe" could be described in this way. The government exists to help make things more fair -- more equal. It's not fair for some people to be incredibly rich while others are incredibly poor. A European would look at the gap between the richest Americans and the poorest Americans as evidence that the American system isn't working. An American would look at the same evidence and point out that it is working as designed. The only concern Americans would have is if the rich got rich from cheating the system in some way. Americans, generally, do not envy the rich because they believe they have a shot at being one of them if they play their cards right. And even if they don't, odds are they'll end up doing pretty well.

The descendants of Europe who live in the United States have a significantly better standard of living than anywhere else in the world. And the American system works so well that descendents from Africa have the highest standard of living of any people with African heritage in the world -- despite having been slaves only a bit over a century ago. But there's a catch (isn't there always?) The poorest Americans live pretty darn poorly compared to people in similar situations in Europe. If life were an obstacle course where 90% of the people were able to compete it and 10% didn't, the 90% in the US are rewarded far more than the 90% in Europe. But at the same time, the 10% who can't do it suffer more in the US than they do in Europe. So which path do you take?

As an American, I've been instilled with its cultural values. So I prefer freedom to fairness. I have sympathy for those who haven't been able to make the cut in American society but I also don't want to see our freedoms further eroded in order to prop them up. I don't like the way things are in "old Europe". My views aren't shared by all Americans. But they are shared by most Americans. And vice versa in Europe. And the result of democracy in action (or representative government if you're anal retentive) is that the system is set up to reflect our values -- just like the French and Germans and Belgians and so on have governments that reflect theirs. And that's a good thing.


Comments (Page 4)
11 PagesFirst 2 3 4 5 6  Last
on Mar 29, 2004
Brad

1) the argument about lead in petrol is moot as it has been replaced in the EU for the past 5 years. If you're going to use this arguement then please be up to date. Modern EU emissions from petrol do not include lead. We also disagree in the definition of 'clean' air. In the EU this means low CO2 and methane content. In the US this means something different so there is not point argueing on this. The difference is that the EU is trying to reduce emissions by large amounts for environmental reasons because it believes there is a serious global risk. The US does not believe in this risk and therefore does not see any urgency in lowering emiossions.

2) Brad WW2 was 60 years ago. It is partly because of this that western Europe has such a strong support for individual human rights. Hence no death penalties. We have a poor history of human rights in the EU. But it is a history not a presence. It was Western Europe which brought Nato into the Balkans because of our disgust about ethnic cleansing. Note that you don't see any Europeans questioning why we ahve troops there or why we fought a war there. Can you say the same for the US?

3) Actually anti-seminism is higher in the US as shown in a recent poll. It's just that the EU considers it a serious issue and therefore it's big news when it occurs. In a recent EU report looking into this very issue, anti-muslim feeling was found to be 3 times higher than anti-seminism feeling. There was much more violence against muslims than against jews. The frightening part of the report was that much of theviolence was perpetrated by the two communities against each other. Importantly racial violence was found to be substantially lower than international averages and much lower than in the US. Racial hatered is much higher in the US and far more racial orientated killings and crime occur there. At least we acknowledge our issues. Lower than international averages is not good enough for us. None is what we aspire to.

Paul.
on Mar 29, 2004
1) the argument about lead in petrol is moot as it has been replaced in the EU for the past 5 years.


U.S. was still first in doing its part to save the environment when it removed the lead years before.

2) Brad WW2 was 60 years ago. It is partly because of this that western Europe has such a strong support for individual human rights. Hence no death penalties. We have a poor history of human rights in the EU. But it is a history not a presence. It was Western Europe which brought Nato into the Balkans because of our disgust about ethnic cleansing. Note that you don't see any Europeans questioning why we ahve troops there or why we fought a war there. Can you say the same for the US?


Not questioning one's government does not make the government right, especially when you consider the hypocrisy to invade one nation's sovereignty while criticizing the U.S. for doing the same to another.
As for individual rights, I think if the death penalty goes against them, then what about incarceration? That's locking somebody up against their will! Sometimes for a decade or two!
on Mar 29, 2004
Europeans have better understanding what human rights are: a right shouldn't be taken away if it doesn't deprive other people of their rights. That's why the right to life may not be taken away in contrast to the freedom of movement, gun carrying and car driving. If this right can be taken away the country is barbarian. If taking light drugs, outdoor alcohol drinking and hitchhiking are not allowed, the country is not free. It cannot be free because its government doesn’t trust its people. So looks like Europeans enjoy more freedom than we do.
on Mar 29, 2004
If this right can be taken away the country is barbarian.


I guess Europe is barbarian for taking away people's lives (i.e. killing soldiers in Kosovo). So are people who'd rather kill a criminal in self-defense (which takes away the right to life of the criminal) than have the entire families raped and murdered. But if there can be exceptions, then capital punishment is not necessarily barbarian.

If taking light drugs, outdoor alcohol drinking and hitchhiking are not allowed, the country is not free.


Yeah. Those are the three things which define freedom. Speech, religion, and press (in which the U.S. excels) are insignificant to those.
on Mar 29, 2004
Those who kill intentionally or endorse doing this are barbarians. We are barbarians since we allow people to be killed. Do Europeans kill soldiers intentionally?

I don't say about speech, religion and press because we're equal in these. But there're many things are not allowed here, so the country is not free.
on Mar 30, 2004
Just to be a smart, well, donkey, a barbarian is actually anyone who isn't Greek.

Cheers
on Mar 30, 2004
Big Mammal, legalized drugs DO NOT make a country better, despite what people think. Ever been to Amsterdam? That place turned into a sh*thole after they legalized drugs. People were shooting up and smoking dope on the streets, in front of children! Comparing the freedoms that Europeans have to our freedoms, we have far, far more, and we have a better country to boot.
on Mar 30, 2004
In response to an older post: Sherye, why would you want to be European?
on Mar 30, 2004
Those who kill intentionally or endorse doing this are barbarians. We are barbarians since we allow people to be killed. Do Europeans kill soldiers intentionally?


What do you think soldiers and machines with weapons that could kill are there for?

I don't say about speech, religion and press because we're equal in these. But there're many things are not allowed here, so the country is not free.


Are we equal? In France, they do not allow individuals to wear religious attire, even though I have yet to see a situation in which religious attire killed somebody. They also blew a gasket when somebody was selling Nazi memorabilia. In fact, in Germany, promoting Nazism is illegal (and I think it's illegal in France as well). It's funny, considering that the U.S. is against communism, yet we allow communists to promote their beliefs and do not jail them for doing so. It's but a few examples. Things aren't as equal as you thought. Therefore, Europe is not free, unless drugs and hitchhiking determine true freedom and speech and religion are but extra perks.
on Mar 30, 2004
Nazi memorabilia is banned from sale in all EU countries I believe. Surely you don’t have a problem with that? Europeans don’t and most Germans really appreciate it I'm sure. I know a French judge blocked some access to parts of Yahoo! auctions, which is probably a bit extreme - but only Nazi sympathisers would want to buy Nazi objects, so why would anyone really want to sell Nazi memorabilia anyway? I know you have the "right" to, but hey.... that doesn’t mean you "have" to.

As for religious attire... Its important to get your facts straight... At some schools in France where uniforms are enforced, some religious attire is forbidden. I think the idea behind this, is that people would not automatically segregate. I’m not sure how it’s working out. As for everywhere else in France, you could walk around in full Muslim dress, or the pope’s robes with a full sized crucifix, and no one would look twice.

"Muslim headscarves, Jewish skullcaps and large crosses are to be banned from French public schools, according to a report presented to President Jacques Chirac Thursday. More "discreet" religious symbols, such as small crosses, Muslim Hands of Fatima and Stars of David should be allowed, a 20-member committee headed by former education minister Bernard Stasi suggested after a three-month study of this issue. " - "However, in all of France, home to almost five million Muslims, no more than 1,250 veiled students currently attend secondary schools, interior minister Nicholas Sarkozy reported recently"

We also need to think about this whole thing differently... Europe is a continent, just like America is a continent. If we are talking about USA vs Europe, I think its only fair that you compare the USA to the EU member states. Otherwise, I think we need to include South American countries in this debate too... Europe is a big place, and we are much more diverse in in many ways when compared to the USA - there are still many 3rd world economies here you know? You do realise that even Russia is in Europe?

XR700: I have been to Amsterdam several times, on business and pleasure, and would never call it a sh*t hole. It’s still a very beautiful, very lively city. They do have drugs there, but there are drugs everywhere. Amsterdams government just thought about things differently, and now rather than throwing money down the drain at enforced drugs prevention - they allow normal people like me, to smoke a bit of dope when Im there. I dont get punished, and they make a profit. No harm is done to anyone and their police can be out catching real criminals. By the way... How is the American "War on drugs" going? Ha ha ha.... What a waste of time.

However, one of the current problems they do have in Holland, is that no other countries have followed their lead. I has now become a top destination for drugs tourists, including many Americans. Perhaps if everywhere had similar rules, that problem would also be less apparent.
on Mar 31, 2004
Heres my take on the USA vs Euro debate.

The sides:

Europe - the pragmatics : The history of Europe has been one of war and powerstruggle. By hard earned experience europeans have found that everybody have different opinions and the only way to have a stabil system is by having rules.

USA - the idealists : USA is foundet on ideals. Its more important to "do the right thing" than following the rules.

The Goal
The recent conflicts USA/Europe relations are not about goal but means. Goal is to create a more peacefull world (lets for the time being disregard whatever other agendas the parties might have). And the conflict lies in how this should be acomplished :

1) Having a common ruleset and an organization to enforce it (read UN). This requires broad approval by the different countries - especially the "powerfull" ones. The more rules the countries can agree on the better. Slow but stabil.

2) Having one "superpower" to keep the world in line. This superpower has to be much more powerfull than the closest competitor so noone will bother start an arms race - and more importantly - such a superpower can NOT be bound by international rules or annoying vetoing ex-superpowers as it would make it impotent. Effective but is it stabil ??

I dont believe in the superpower model will be stabil in the long run - but then again - "Pax Romanum" kept a large part of the wold in line for hundret of years.

Mogens

Disclaimer : being european my opinions are ofcourse tainted
on Mar 31, 2004

I'd say that modern Europe is the idealists. They're the ones who think diplomacy will solve problems despite historical evidence to the contrary.

One look at the proposed EU constitution and one can't help but feel they're being very idealistic.

The UN cannot "enforce" anything. Only member nations can enforce it which, as a practical matter, means the United States and UK.

Pax Romania didn't keep antyhign in line but its own territory. The United States cannot be compared to the Roman empire. There is little they have in common.

Anyone who believes the UN wields any real power is being very idealistic.

on Apr 01, 2004
On the issue of freedom versus fairness, what's often inportant is

rights of the individual versus rights of the society.

In Europe

Nazi memorbelia - rights of the society for protection from a historically proven abhorrent cause is considered stronger than the rights of any individual to preach that cause. The rights of an individual to belong to that cause are still there.

Religious attire - In France, rights of a secular society to raise it's kids without over religious symbolism is considered more important than the rights of an individual to overtly display that symbolism in the class room. Note that the rights outside the classroom favour the individual and that any individual may choose to go to a religious not state run school.

Drugs - In Amsterdam, the rights of an individual to consume drugs are considered more important than the rights of society not to be confronted by such drug use. Elsewhere the rights of society are considered more important. For harder class drugs the right of society to protect its citizens from self harm is greater than the right of those citizens to harm themselves.

war - there are specific legalities associated with the declaration of war or a legally approved peace keeping mission. THese include the issue of killing soldiers. The right to kill is restricted solely to enemy combatants and then only when they pose a direct threat. It is no surprise that many soldiers end up in court with their actions investigated where civilians were killed or even where enemy soldiers were not asked to surrender before being killed. The US has refused to join the international court of justice because it has less strict combat rules and hence its soldiers may end up in court over this.

Paul.

PS. As for diplomancy solving problems I think Libya is an excellent example of a success story. Diplomancy won't always solve problems but giving it a chance helps.

PPS. As for the EU constitution, it's not idealistic at all. The attempt to get 25 countries (nearly 400M people) to agree to the same constitution is challenging though. The UE site has full details but the following link gives a nice breakdown http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2950276.stm

on Apr 01, 2004
Nazi memorabilia is banned from sale in all EU countries I believe. Surely you don’t have a problem with that? Europeans don’t and most Germans really appreciate it I'm sure. I know a French judge blocked some access to parts of Yahoo! auctions, which is probably a bit extreme - but only Nazi sympathisers would want to buy Nazi objects, so why would anyone really want to sell Nazi memorabilia anyway? I know you have the "right" to, but hey.... that doesn’t mean you "have" to.


So, because it offends people, although it is harmless, it should be outlawed? I have yet to see a case of a holocaust happening because of memorabilia.

Solitair, that does explain basic difference between the US and Europe. US is more for rights of the individual , except in some cases (such as drugs), while Europe is more for society's rights (except in some cases as well).
on Apr 01, 2004

Big Mammal: In living memory Europeans have murdered more people than the rest of the world combined.

Soliltair - I don't want to sound anti-European. I'm not. I have a lot of European friends (ironically, most of the people I talk to on-line in a given day are European). But when you have someone running around saying that Europe is more civilized than the United States, that's just absurd. Especially when his reasoning is as weak as capital punishment.  Yes, several hundred people have been executed in the United States in the past few decades. The Europeans executed many millions of people last century in two world wars they started.

Now you can say "Hey, don't lump all Europeans together". Fine, then don't lump all Americans together. California has a larger GDP than most European countries. Capital punishment isn't allowed there.

I happen to favor capital punishment. Why? Because Americans enjoy a lot of freedoms but those freedoms come at a cost. We're allowed to own guns. It's a great responsibility. Those who abuse that responsbility have to suffer the consequences of that.

11 PagesFirst 2 3 4 5 6  Last