Brad Wardell's views about technology, politics, religion, world affairs, and all sorts of politically incorrect topics.
Respecting dissent is a two-way street
Published on May 31, 2006 By Draginol In War on Terror

Why is it that the group that claims tolerance and open-mindedness as its mantra so intolerant and close minded in practice? What I speak of is the political left's tendency to interject their political beliefs into every venue that they can while at the same time, actively working to prevent those who disagree with them from having the ability to express their beliefs.

If I watch the MTV Music Awards, I can expect to have some left-winger denounce the war in Iraq.  If I was the Oscars, I can expect to be treated to more anti-US policy rhetoric along with some environmentalist ranting from someone who gets around by personal jet. If I watch Comedy Central or go to a concert or buy a music album or even play an on-line game without someone telling me that their point of view (always the left-wing point of view) is the only "correct" view and those who disagree with them are mean or cruel or more commonly "ignorant".

On PowerUser.TV, we recently discussed how an anti-war protester was protesting in the video game "America's Army" (a game made by the US military as a game/recruitment tool).  My response was that that user has every right to do that.  But I did note the irony that the US military allows the protester their say while left-wingers work nation wide to ban military recruiters from publicly funded campuses.  Tolerance, apparently, is a one-way street.

During the segment, I argued that this sort of thing tends to backfire because it is just another example of anti-war opponents trying to shove their views down the throats of everyone else and few people like that. I mentioned that I happen to support US action and that there had been some pretty positive results in Iraq that seem to be forgotten (20 million people no longer living under Saddam, free elections, etc.).  I never implied that I supported US action because I thought we should "liberate" Iraq. 

In response, on the PowerUser.TV comments a number of people complained about my beliefs.  In fact, they universally used the word "ignorant" to describe my views.  Apparently, ones knowledge on a subject is dependent on how closely your opinion matches that of a left-winger.  The more you disagree with a left-winger, the more ignorant you are.

The left loves that word "ignorant". It is their way of smugly dismissing people's opinions without having to really consider them.  The people insulting me on PowerUser.TV don't know me. They have no idea how much I know or don't know.  All they know is that I mentioned, very briefly, that I happen to support US military action in Iraq. That's it.  That was enough for them to decide that I'm "ignorant".

Anyone who has bothered to look into my background, what I've done and written and especially anyone who knows me personally I suspect will conclude that I'm not "ignorant".  The problem with so many on the left is that they cannot accept that intelligent, well educated, well informed people might have seen the same things they've seen and come to different conclusions.

If I discuss that topic with people who disagree with my conclusions about liberals/left-of-center people, I usually get some sort of moral equivalence argument. Someone will point out Fox News or some right-wing whacko.  If you point out Michael Moore you get Ann Coulter thrown in your face.  But the pattern is usually something that can most charitably be described as "Look at these hundreds of examples" with moral equivalence being "Oh  yea, here's a counter example" as if that makes the two things equal. 

You would be hard pressed to find truly equivalent examples of right-of-center people forcing their views on others. A left-winger watching Nascar doesn't have to worry about one of the drivers coming out and saying "And those of you who don't support the war, you are ignorant cowards."  Even during the heated recent election, right-wing celebrities didn't go on and say "Yea, the John Kerry is a fucking idiot." (the way several celebrities did to Bush or Bush supporters). 

And as we see on that PowerUser.TV thread, it's not me or right-wingers going on and saying how ignorant or cowardly or stupid or uneducated left-wingers are.  What's really ironic is that the left's response to the segment proves the point.  Center of right people (such as myself) are regularly subjected to left of center dogma in inappropriate venues. But we don't riot about it. We don't try to shout down those who do it. We get annoyed about it and that's about it.  That I even mentioned my position (not even making a much of a case for or against the war in Iraq) brought out more posts than any show we've had all using the word "ignorant" and some of them saying things like "Well those people protesting the war are just trying to wake you up."

Apparently, some opinions are simply the "correct" opinions. Those who disagree are "ignorant" and need to be educated. Incorrect opinions need to be subverted, buried, hidden and those who have those opinions shouted down and shamed.  The problem with that strategy, in a democracy, is that the voters tend to have the last laugh. Americans don't take kindly to bullies.


Comments (Page 1)
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on May 31, 2006
It's just so much easier to dismiss your opposition as ignorant boobs who know nothing about nothing than to engage them in an argument that might require some thought.

Or some soul-searching. Or some conversation. Or some fact-checking.

We have a big job ahead of us, you know: fighting the good fight.
on May 31, 2006
I think you are choosing to see what you wish to see and, remembering nothing of the last president.

I'm not sure how people who have the political majority in nearly all areas can pretend to think they are "bullied".

As much as you've seen entertainers shooting off their mouths and, saying what I believe are inappropriate things that favor the left, there have been many examples of the same thing happening from the right.

I think that comparing the views of the "general" public to views of the spoiled elite, making some stupid rant on T.V. is like comparing Republican to Democrat, or the poor to the rich.

If you give "examples" of the "liberal left" as you put it, why do you expect others to sit there and not fire back? The fact of the matter is, demonizing is demonizing. Whether you are on the "right" or "left". There are examples on both sides. So why even bring it up?

You make the point that people are calling you "ignorant" and, these people don't know you. You are right on both counts. But for you to compare my personal beliefs to some rappers, some movie stars or, a big guy that apparently doesn't know what a shaving razor is.....is equally wrong. You say yourself that you made YOUR political views known via PowerUser.TV. How do you differentiate that from what you are complaining about?

I don't know what others have written. I don't know if you are ignorant or not. I don't even care. But if you make your opinion known, you are going to get blasted no matter what side you're on.

Still, you do exactly what you are claiming others are doing. You are grouping all the "left" together. You are calling the left intolerant and closed minded. If you think that is what I am, you are ignorant. At least on this point.

If you re-read your own article and, the first comment......what is open minded and tolerant about anything you both have said?

You seem to make it clear that you don't want to have the left interject their opinions when they can.
Yet you do.
You give examples
Yet you make it clear that you are unwilling to consider other examples that don't support your arguments
You claim the anti-war people are shoving their opinion down your throat
Yet you do not acknowledge that they are having a war and thus, your political beliefs shoved down theirs

I have no idea what people said to you. If they dismissed you out of hand, we both know who is ignorant.

This post and subsequent comment are all stick and no carrot. You expect what you yourself are not willing to give.

Those of us that are hanging out in the middle, sometimes left, sometimes right, are sick of all of this crap.

Noone is right 100% of the time. Until a person is willing to concede this, they have no hope of objective argument.

PC

on May 31, 2006

As much as you've seen entertainers shooting off their mouths and, saying what I believe are inappropriate things that favor the left, there have been many examples of the same thing happening from the right.

Such as...

I don't see the right interjecting their opinions into non-relevant venues. 

on May 31, 2006
Incidentally, as an engineer, I have to work with generalities.  I don't believe there is a monolothic left or right. I do think, however, there are sets of behaviors that are distinct to the majority of each group.
on May 31, 2006
I hate generalities too, and hate to make generalizations, but I agree whole-heartedly with where Brad is coming from here.

The people that preach tolerance are quite often those most ignorant in practicing it. Those that want to "fix" the world's ills and are bashing the current administration are doing so with no real plans, or no different or differing plans on how to correct the problems they are complaining about.

If there was nothing to complain about at all, there'd still be something found to complain about in order to widen what power could be attained for the liberal causes and their representatives. Without that happening, there'd be no "stick" to use on the people from the left that are chasing the carrot that continues to be dangled well out reach of those that it's been promised to.
on May 31, 2006
I think anti-war people should take thier next vacation in Iraq, spread thier happy happy joy joy feelings there and see how much love they can grow from the experiance. That might buy some respect in my book. Other than that, we are there for the oil right? Funny, my fuel bills have not decreased.
on May 31, 2006
One look at the comments section of joeuser on any political issue is a clear proof that the right is as intolerant as the left. Any reasonable leftish comments are completely shouted down, leaving only the 'not so reasonable' lefties. So I have to agree with TheGuyPC, you are just seeing what you want to see.
on May 31, 2006

One look at the comments section of joeuser on any political issue is a clear proof that the right is as intolerant as the left. Any reasonable leftish comments are completely shouted down, leaving only the 'not so reasonable' lefties. So I have to agree with TheGuyPC, you are just seeing what you want to see.

I definitely agree that right wingers are pretty likely to shout other people down. But you usually have to go to a political forum or some other discussion area to actually be exposed to it. By contrast, the left doesn't seem to recognize there is a time and place for things.  The JU right wingers may shout people down on JU but they're not interupting your concert or an awards show or your video games to shout you down.

on May 31, 2006
hmmm....what I find interesting (to Maurice the anonymous), is that the left can still come here, free of charge, and post, for the most part, anything that they want.

But let a rightwinger go to DU, and have him/her post something, and see just how long they last.

By far, I see the left want to shut up those who oppose them. Just look at how Christians are viewed, or...look at how the pro-life, or the anti-gay marraige folks are looked upon and talked to.

Sure, there are many on the right that are as intolerant as a telephone pole meeting up with a scooter, but by far, the left is much worse, on the whole.
on May 31, 2006
definitely agree that right wingers are pretty likely to shout other people down. But you usually have to go to a political forum or some other discussion area to actually be exposed to it. By contrast, the left doesn't seem to recognize there is a time and place for things. The JU right wingers may shout people down on JU but they're not interupting your concert or an awards show or your video games to shout you down.



10000% in total agreement. The celebrities (on the left) seem to feel that everyone should have to listen to them (think Dixie Chicks and radio stations and fans boycotting them). But let someone, say, Toby Keith....say what he believes (Angry American song), and the left comes undone (again, Dixie Chicks).

NOTE: I am using Toby Keith & the Dixie Chicks as examples, but really, it is all over the place.
on May 31, 2006

"Such as...

I don't see the right interjecting their opinions into non-relevant venues. "

********************************************************************************

Well that all depends on what you feel is a non-relevant venue.

You are on the right. You interjected your political beliefs into PowerUser.Tv.
I've never watched it myself, but is this a political broadcast?

The US Military released a game/recruitment tool.
Is this an appropriate venue?

I've seen Condoleeza Rice, Hillary Clinton, John McCain and others speaking at various colleges commencement ceremonies.
Is this an appropriate venue?

You say that if you point out Michael Moore, you get Ann Coulter thrown in your face.
Do you think Ann Coulter is in any way a decent, tolerant and open minded person?

He made some books and movies. He rarely makes public appearances. You can take him or leave him.
Ann Coulter is constantly on Fox News in particular. She also has some books. But if you want to watch Fox, you can expect to hear flurry of name calling, finger pointing and downright demonizing.
Does Michael Moore demonize? I'm not sure. I DO know that you can choose to ignore him and he's gone.
Does Ann Coulter? Can you turn her off? Sure. But, you can turn off MTV also.

The Dixie Chicks have criticized the war and the president via country music.
Is this an appropriate venue?

Randy Travis had a minor hit with "Point of Light" a campaign slogan straight out of Bush Sr.'s mouth
Is this an appropriate venue?

It's hard to argue with generalizations and demonetization's therein. It is a tactic that purposely "blurs the line" leaving no room for opposition. This fact is compounded when you use examples, expecting none back. And even further when you create a classification such as "appropriate-venue's" without defining exactly what that means. What is "appropriate" to you in one circumstance may not be in another. You don't remember the "Pro war" "Pro Bush" examples because they don't make you mad. They are "Patriots"... "Good for them". "They support our troops.".

Anyone who is anti-war or, doesn't like this president is some kind of coward,
Bush bashing, liberal hypocrite with no plans of their own who is "bullying" the
party that holds power in nearly every conceivable way?

You say that apparently some opinions are simply the "correct" opinions (referring to the left).
Yet you haven't conceded one point or even acknowledged that there may be a valid point of view
that you don't subscribe to............. at all.

If you wish to express the opinion's - that you have
lead by example. Otherwise you're defeating yourself.

and, as for this..........
*****************************************************************************************************
If there was nothing to complain about at all, there'd still be something found to complain about in order to widen what power could be attained for the liberal causes and their representatives.
*****************************************************************************************************
The right wing/ Republicans would NEVER do this. Right?
[***************************************************************************************************
And this.........

"
Reply By: Nitro Cruiser Posted: Wednesday, May 31, 2006
I think anti-war people should take thier next vacation in Iraq, spread thier happy happy joy joy feelings there and see how much love they can grow from the experiance.
*

I think a better idea would be for YOU and YOUR condescending attitude to take that vacation in Iraq
and see what has and hasn't been accomplished. Billions of dollars and thousands of lives are gone.
What have we gotten so far?

By the way, this is yet another sweeping generalization. "anti-war people" are "happy happy joy joy" people who are looking for love.
i.e. weak, faint of heart, lacking in intelligence, unpatriotic.

This is another good example of what this article is about. But look who's doing it.
This is no discussion really. This is just about hating the left and how the left hates the right, from the "right" point of view.
Nothing wrong with that. But it is what it is. Pointless.


on May 31, 2006
hmmm....what I find interesting (to Maurice the anonymous), is that the left can still come here, free of charge, and post, for the most part, anything that they want.

But let a rightwinger go to DU, and have him/her post something, and see just how long they last.
*****************************************************************************************************************************
Are you really comparing this site to Democratic Underground?
I thought this was Joe User. Not Joe Republican Underground User.

While I can come here for free and, appreciate the fact.......I have purchased from Stardock and I would like to think that I have contributed in some small fashion.
on May 31, 2006
why don't you read who I was talking to, and what I was talking about?
on May 31, 2006
I was not speaking of coming here and posting. What I was doing, was comparing this site with another well known "tolerant" site. This was AFTER Maurice posted about the right wingers shouting down the left.

On the "tolerant" site of the "tolerant" side, the rightwingers are just banned.
on May 31, 2006
, I'm completely lost.

Either way, it happens on BOTH sides. That isn't right and, shouldn't happen. If right wingers are banned anywhere, it lends itself to censorship. If they are that busy kissing their own asses, they don't deserve comment or attention.

Brad is absolutely correct to point out the hippocrisy of the left. It IS there.
I just countered that the same holds true of BOTH parties and, it's US who need
to change.

You don't win friends without finding common ground. It's there, THAT is the "good fight".
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