Brad Wardell's views about technology, politics, religion, world affairs, and all sorts of politically incorrect topics.
My review and experience with it
Published on May 1, 2005 By Draginol In Home Improvement

If you decide you want to finish your basement there are lots of options to consider.  Do you do it yourself? Do you contract it out? Maybe do a little in between? For me and my wife, we just aren't handy enough to try to finish a basement on our own.  So we decided we'd contract the whole thing out.

Once you decide you're going to contract it out, then it's a matter of deciding what direction to take with it. Do you go with drywall? The problem with drywall is that it takes months to put in (how long do you want contractors going in and out of your house?).  It makes a lot of mess (expects months if not years of drywall dust to be floating around your house), it's susceptible to damage from a wide range of sources (water, normal wear and tear due to it being in a basement).  So we wanted our basement finished but drywall had a lot of negatives to it.

That's when we heard about the Owens Corning Basement System.  After intense negotiations, we had it done.  And below you can read about our experiences during the sales process, installation, and after effects.  I hope you find it useful.

The Owens Corning Basement System has been in place now for our basement for about a month now so I've had time to get used to it.

The project went pretty smoothly except for a few hiccups that I'll talk about here. So what's the verdict? Here are the things I really liked about it:

  1. It's fast. In 2 weeks it's all done.
  2. It's clean. No dry wall dust all over.
  3. It's durable. It's virtually impossible to damage. Basements, unlike the rest of the house, are more prone to dings since that's where most people store things too.
  4. It's virtually sound proof. This was an unexpected benefit. But the kids can go and play down there without having to hear music, TV, yelling throughout the house.
  5. It looks pretty nice still (but not as nice as dry wall in my opinion).
  6. It is nice to know that in 20 years it'll look the same as today. Dry wall in basements tend to not look so good. At best you'll have to repaint larger areas. With this, you don't have to.

The big thing for us though was the speed of it. My first basement was done with dry wall and I have no regrets about that. It was nicely done. But it took months to do and over a year for the house to stop having more dust in it than before. The dry wall dust simply gets everywhere.

If you're as unhandy as me, then you likely want contractors to do pretty much all the building. It can be uncomfortable having strangers in your house for months. In contrast, the Owens Corning Basement System was installed in our roughly 1100 to 1200 square foot area in about 2 weeks (closer to 10 days).

In short, I was willing to pay a premium to not have to deal with a summer of construction. The fact that it looks nice and can't be damaged easily was a real bonus. My 3 year old already put that to the test by taking a permanent marker to one of the walls. In a few minutes we were able to wipe it off with some bleach and you can't even tell where it was. Contrast that to having to repaint that area with a dry wall basement. Not to mention all the nicks and gouges that would be there due to moving stuff down there.

That said, here are things that I ran into that I didn't like that you should be aware of:

I really didn't like the sales strategy of their sales people. High pressure combined with little specifics created a lot of headaches during the project.

First off, people who can afford to pay a premium for their basement being done aren't fools. Even so, they used the same tactic on us as they would on some gullible yokel. No offense, but the reason we can afford this stuff is because we have some financial savvy. So don't march into our houses with magazines showing that the "Average" basement costs over $50 per square foot to finish. Because that's nonsense and does more to harm your sale than anything else. Sure, if you're going to have bathrooms and kitchens and tiled areas and wet bars and such it will cost more, but the Owens Corning System doesn't take care of any of that. They just do the "walls", drop down ceiling, electrical, and a few other things. They're not going to build you a bar or tile your floor for you (unless you make a special deal with them). Just for reference, a typical basement done with dry wall with nothing too fancy done shouldn't cost much more than $20 per square foot. Our last dry wall basement cost around $17 per square foot.

The price you should try to get with the Owens Corning Basement System is somewhere between $25 and $35 per square foot. They may balk at $25 but $35 they should certainly take. I paid about $28 per square foot. $30 per square foot would be good. Anything much higher and you're paying too much. Which is why they do the high pressure tactic to get you to sign right there.  To the sales guy's horror, I made him sit there while I had my laptop doing net searches on how much other people have paid. By the way, be aware that most states do have a law that allow you to back out of contracts within 72 hours. So if they did manage to get you to commit for $55 per square foot or something you aren't up the creek.

The second thing I didn't care for was the amount of vagueness to the agreement. Because of the high pressure sales tactics, the sales guy didn't write down a lot of our specific needs on his "agreement" (which was literally just a 1 page form he hand wrote notes on which I was pretty unhappy about). For instance, we said we wanted padded carpet so he suggested Home Depot. Which we did. But they didn't cut the doors so that they would fit on padded carpet so when we put in the carpeting, we had to take off the doors. It took us 3 weeks to get them to make good on this. They argued it wasn't their responsibility to fix the doors. Nonsense. We told them up front that we were going to get padded carpet. For us to fix would have meant bringing in another contractor. They agreed to fix it only after I made it clear that I would ensure that my experiences with the Owens Corning Basement System would show up high on google. It took the guy 30 minutes to fix it once he dropped by. So they made good but it did mar an otherwise fairly seamless experience.

So make sure that you are clear (and document) exactly what they do and what they expect you to do. The Owens Corning contractors don't tend to do as much as regular full service basement contractors. They weren't planning on putting in our phone and cable lines for example but luckily that was written into that agreement.

Thirdly, the only negative I've run into since putting it in is that it is, contrary to what they said, not that easy to hang things up on the walls. Since they're not drywall, you can't just put in a nail and put stuff up. You have to use special clipper thingies. These work nice on light things. But they didn't give us any samples or directions or order forms to get things for putting up heavier items (like a big white board for example). This has been a source of some ire since it's turning out not easy to find these "mending plates" in low quantities. Office Max and Staples don't seem to have them. None of the hardware stores we've looked at have them. I've looked on the net and I can buy them in quantity (like 1000 at a time) but I only need like 5. My suggestion is to insist that they provide you with 100 of the t-pins (small stuff) and 100 mending plates (big stuff) as part of the agreement.

Fourthly, this gets back to the "customers are suckers" sales pitch. The sales guy and his materials really went hard on the mold scare tactic. Mold is definitely something not to blow off. But it should not be your motivating factor to spend a third again as much on a basement. Would you pay $15000 more on your house for a "lightning strike resistant" design? The kinds of houses most people who would put this stuff in are usually newer and on the premium side. The basements, in short, don't get wet very easily. That isn't to say they shouldn't mention mold, but it should be more of a "bonus" feature rather than as the principle selling point.

Now that it's all done, I'm pretty happy with it. I like knowing that I won't have to mess around with painting or touching up the basement in a few years. I do wish it was easier to modify with other things. For instance, I can't just build out a bar from it. But that is no biggie really. The basement does what it was supposed to do. And even better, since I want to have a theatre down there eventually, it's got incredible acoustics. If you have the money and are more interested in having your basement be finished quickly and cleanly rather than having some incredible basement palace created, this is something you should seriously consider.

Completion date: September 2003.

Update: September 2005: I have created a second article for people who want to share their experiences (good and bad) with the Owens Corning Basement System. GO HERE to discuss.

update: 10/2003 - still pretty happy with the basement. thanks for all your emails. if you have any questions, ask them in the comments area or you can email me at bwardell@stardock.com.

update: 5/1/2005 - still happy with how it's turned out. I get a  lot of email on this stuff from people, I don't usually get to answer it. But I will say that we are happy with it still. It absorbs sound. But I maintain that the main reason to get it is that you want to save time. If you don't mind having people working on your basement for 6 to 10 weeks and the drywall dust and other dirt that is inevitable with dry-wall then get the dry-wall.  But for me, having it all over in a week or so was the key and no mess afterwards.


Comments (Page 18)
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on Oct 28, 2004
To Mike: The CDC has its own website. Just go to CDC and look up Toxic mold>>>
on Oct 29, 2004
I wanted to throw my two cents in this discussion since my wife and I have had a very similar experience with OC. We had the rep from Toledo out one Sat and we went through the whole sales pitch. We have aprox 1000 sq ft to finish and came away stunned at the cost. I didn't like the tactics used to try to close us first at 43,000 and then at 31,000. He kept talking about a payment he makes on one of his kids braces and saying how we could surely afford that much. To people who buy things based on what the payment is, this is a dangerous thing for the consumer. We liked the system very much and I think my wife was ready to sign after the last 10% discount was revealed. Thank goodness I was able to snap her back into the real world and let the deal go. I'll be checking out the other company for any similar products and investigating other ways to go. I'm very glad I stumbled on to this forum. I will bookmark it for the future.
on Oct 30, 2004
what did you pay per sq. foot??
on Oct 31, 2004
I want to post a postiive comment.

My sales rep was terrific and it was a very positive experience. I don't understand the complaints on this board about 3 hour visits. You want to make a decision on an important investment in 20 minutes? I would spend the whole day if I have to but I was worried that I was taking up the rep's time. My sales rep spent over 2.5 hours with us in the basement trying to get the blueprint just right. I am very satisified with the outcome and am very excited. He wanted to be sure I was satisified with the plan. I am.

When we started I told him I thought 20K was max but after 4 hours of asking questions and discussing the many positives of the OC system, I was more than happy to pay the price of 27.6K, which came out to just over $25 a square foot for my 1,100 sq ft basement. That includes everything except the carpeting and the bathroom we wanted to put in, but we could live with that. We are getting a playroom, an exercise room, a laundry room, a 5th bedroom, a utility closet, a storage room, and a "closet" under the stairs - plenty of recessed lighting, phone and cable jacks, and outlets. The bathroom wall will be framed out so that we can just hire a plumber and buy the sink/toilet later at our convenience.

Once done, my house will jump from a 8 room 2100 sq foot contemporary to a 3200 sq ft home with 12 rooms and the value of my home will skyrocket. There is no POSSIBLE way I would get this value with drywall for 27K. No way Jose. And even if I could, I would have possible mold, sound, and warmth problems, would have difficulty modifying the electrical in the future and would have to use a dehumidifier and would have to paint and spackle virtually every year. This is without mentioning the fact it will be done worry-free in just 2 weeks.

Finally, the financing available is fantastic. I only have to pay $270 a month minimum. It is doubtful I would have gotten such flexibility from any other traditional construction company. Of course, I will pay more than the minimum when I can so as to reduce the interest overhead but it is good to know that, aside from the down deposit, which I was fortunately able to afford, I never have to pay more than $270 a month.

As for the "mold scare" - well it is mostly true. Mold is A MAJOR PROBLEM and there is just no way to get around it with traditional basements. I am allergic to mold and have had respiratory problems - so this is not a scare but reality. I understand that dehumidifers help but who wants to be bothered with maintaining a dehumidifier and how much electricity will you use over 20 years? For that matter, who wants to be bothered repainting and re-spackling the basement every 2 or 3 years (especially if you have kids).

I do dislike the fact that you are forced to use one color only but I am happy with the faux wood paneling (batts?) that they offer, which is what I will use. If it was all white, I would have had a problem because I hate the color white and have it nowhere in my house. Actually, it is more gray than white and the fabric is very easy to clean up after messy kids.

Well, I guess it is not for everyone - nothing is - but I can't for the life of me understand the amount of negativism on this board and I wanted to just balance it a little because my experience has been positive. Maybe we just have good reps out here in the Pocono Mountains (Northeast PA) and it does sound like there are some parasites out there, but you could say this about any company.

It has not been installed yet and some comments about making proper room for carpet padding and securing enough picture hangers have been very helpful.

Thank you all.
- Keith
on Nov 02, 2004
Thank you for your great tips! I like your idea of subcontract the ceiling, carpet and electricity work. Did you hire Hom Depot to install the ceiling for you? Did the electricity guy do all wirings before or after the wall was installed?

I will really appreciate your reply.

Jan
on Nov 03, 2004
Greetings to all of the people who make negative comments about the Owens system. I live near Columbus, Ohio and had the basment installed about one year ago. Our sales rep was unlike all of the negative comments that have previously been brought up. Being in sales, I can understand where these guys are coming from, and it seems that some of there sales reps need to take a class on customer service, but my experience was the opposite. As a previous person mentioned, do you really want to make a large purchase after a 20 minutes sales pitch? I would think not. Our sales rep, took a little over 3 hours and explained all of the details to the system- Why it works well, the advantages to it over dry wall, the mold issue.

As for the mold issue- People can put their blinders on and say it is not a big deal, but rest assured that in 10 years it will be a very HOT topic among the gov't and healthcare officials. Why is that new commercial construction has to have safeguards against mold in some areas of the country where the moisture level is higher than that of the Southwest? Your basement is the "wettest" place in your house and drywall allows mold and mildew to grow and spread. This is a known fact. Sure you can put it in your basement, but be prepared to replace it in 10 years. And do not be fooled that you can not see the mold since either paint or wallcovering is on the face of it. If moisture is not allowed to pass through the material, mold will grow. This is not meant to scare individuals, it is simply the facts.

For the cost- You are getting a premium product, not some knock off made in a third world country by an eight year old boy. The price is well worth it, if you plan on staying in your house for a reasonable amount of time. I do not think it will instantly add 83,000 to your homes value, but it will not hurt your homes value either. People need to weigh out all of the cost benefits to determine if it is worth it. A family with 2 kids can validate the purchase easier than a single woman living alone. Take into considerations such as what the space will be used for, and if it will improve your home, quality of life and so on. I love it for the sound absorbant panels and when my four kids are playing down there, we can sit in peace and quiet upstairs and enjoy a book, tv or movie. To me, that makes it worth it, but that is only my opinion. For people that find it hard to stomach the price: you do not expect to walk into a Porsche dealership and have them sell you a $100,000 car for the price of a Kia....do you?

Potential buyers- I encourage you to meet with your local franchise to see what type of plan they can come up with. Be upfront with them about what you can afford and if it will be possible. You do not need to decide on the first night, but you may get the best deal. After all- You are the consumer and you have the power to buy or not to buy. Nobody can force you into buying something, and do not be intimidated by harsh sales tactics. If you do not like the sales rep that meets with you but like the system, I would call the franchise and speak to the owner. If you cut out the sales rep, that cuts out his commisions. Maybe then they will approach things a bit differently.

Just my thoughts...
on Nov 03, 2004
I am in Columbus Ohio as well and recently had a sales rep from OC out to my home and had to endure all of the sales tactics mentioned above, three discounts for this and that, then a call to the supervisor for a deal he can only make tonight. I did like what seemed to be the ease and cleanliness of putting the system in, but after reviewing the warranty, (that actually covers nothing), and the actual cost per square foot (which was exaggerated by over 20%) I was put off enough to not go with the Owens Corning System. I will get my basement finished, but am trying to figure out what route to go.

Regards
on Nov 05, 2004
The OC rep came out to our home and took about 2 hours for the dog and pony. He was clearly new to the game (his business card had the old rep's name crossed out) and not a very effective salesman. He hadn't yet mastered the presentation and his pitches were a bit ham-handed. He attempted to dwell on the mold issue with regard to drywall, but proceeded to tell us that drywall was the only option for our basement bathroom. Given that the bathroom will be one of the most damp portions of the basement and therefore most susceptible to mold, wouldn't that defeat the purpose of the BFS? He had no answer. Wasn't the fact that a portion of our basement is already drywalled a problem? No answer. Doesn't the acoustic ceiling recommended contribute to the mold problem. No answer.

His initial bid for a 1050 room (exterior walls only - no interior partitions, no bathroom, no carpet) was over $49,000. He would not break the bid down or provide any specifics. I could not even get him to tell me how many outlets this included ("it will meet code" is all I heard.) After a phone call to his supervisor the bid dropped to $45K if we agreed to an open house. Two days later the salesman called and the bid dropped to $39K. One day later his sales manager called and the bid was now $35K but there was a price increase November 1 (oh, good Lord) so we had to sign today. Haven't heard from him since. But I fully expect another call and a lower price.

With regard to the mold issue, I know dozens and dozens of people who have had finished basements for years. Not a single one has keeled over from mold contamination. Clearly mold has been a problem for a couple of well publicized individuals, but few modest precautions can mitigate the majority of mold problems. When faced with this level of hype, it's important to conduct some research and trust your own eyes and ears - not those of someone selling a clearly premium priced product that uses fear as a main selling tactic.

I choose not to do business with a company that has this 1960's way of grinding their customers. Our basement renovations begin next week with the total cost being under $12,000.
on Nov 05, 2004
I too am in SE Michigan and dealing with Basement Experts. Got the standard sales pitch with the mold scare last weekend, but the saleman wasn't over-the-top pushy. I told him up front (truthfully) that I had another appointment and could only give him 1-1.5 hours of my time. That seemed to help, because he fast-pathed through his pitch so we could talk price. He started at $58/sq ft, but told us we wouldn't have to pay that. We already had a 15%-off coupon, and he said he'd see if our home could be a model home for the area, which would further reduce the price. He left after 1.5 hours with no committment from me. He's coming back this Sunday to finish his pitch.

I really appreciate all of the posts on this thread. I feel I have a good idea what is a fair price for this product. I'll see what I can negotiate him down to and post my results.

BTW, I'm also collecting quotes from contractors for a traditionally finished basement (2x4's, drywall w/insulation, hung ceiling, full bath). So far they're in the $20-25/sq ft range. My basement is about 1100 sq ft., or 1400 sq ft if I finish the utility room too.
on Nov 06, 2004
Well I had been looking at the owens corning system for a week, here is my story.

Scenario: 550 sq.ft basement, NO existing structure (except concrete walls and floor)

I am not a carpenter, but I had successfully finished a basement in our last house (we live in MI) for about $5500 doing it myself (720 sq. ft and 12 weeks of weekend work - lots of corners). In our new home, I thought what the heck, lets just do it with Owens Corning and be done with it.

Quote from Owens: $46/sq.ft = $25,300

I went to Home Depot and priced the job using moisture resistant drywall, metal studs, all electrical, drop ceiling and a pergo floor. Total cost all inclusive: $5200 (1/2 the basement: 550 sq. ft).

This post may not be for everyone, but if you feel comfortable enough do handyman tasks around the house, I would HIGHLY suggest doing it yourself (plus it is fun to get involved, makes the basement YOURS). All those horror stories about how difficult it is, they just are not true. The most difficult part is finishing the drywall (I usually have that done). Electrical work and installation is a snap with metal studs (you can have an electrician do the live wiring at a reasonable cost if your not comfortable), and for those of you armed with the benefits of the system read on.

I am sure you are all aware of the cons, can't hang anything on it, can't paint it, etc. But what about the benefits.

Concerned with mold? I used a product called RadonSeal (also a waterproofer) and it is fabulous. Our basement (both the current house and our last home) have humidity levels in the basement which are typically less than the rest of the house. I know how can this be true, well it is and we live in Michigan. Also use moisture resistant drywall (like you would in a bathroom), sure it is a bit more expensive but not that much.

Bottom line, for 500% less money I will spend a little extra time and do it myself (even if you had a contractor do it it would be cheaper) and put the other $20,000 in a retirement account.
on Nov 06, 2004
I just read through many more of the posts and I see MOLD being the #1 concern. Let me make a point here, if you think the OC system will "prevent" mold, YOUR WRONG, it's just that simple. Believe me, if it "prevented" mold 100% it would be in every basment around the country bottom-line. With the $20,000 I save by NOT using OC, I can completely remodel my entire HOUSE in 10 years (assuming as some have stated, I will have a mold problem by then) since statistically speaking that $20,000 will be worth $50,000 in 10 years.

I should make on thing clear here. If you can justify $25-50 sq.ft for something that can be done for around $10 sq.ft with a little effort, then I think this just might be a good decision for you. I get excited about things I can do myself (let's call it an entrepreneurial spirit) rahter than paying for everything, makes me feel lazy.

I know these last two posts sound like a promotional ad for "do-it-yourselfers", but I just can't make these OC numbers work anyway I tweak them.

P.S. If you are that concerned with the mold issue, I wouldn't even consider carpet.
on Nov 07, 2004
The OC is coming to my place CT., can't wait!
on Nov 07, 2004
You need three things for toxic mold to grow. 1) moisture 2) temp. between 40 and 100 degrees. 3) cellulose (drywall, wood, cardboard, etc. Two of the above are and will always be present in your basement. To Vic and Cris you just don't know what you are talking about. You can have carpet as long as it is polyester! (Most carpets are) When there is mold in a basement carpet it is usually not the carpet but the pad underneathe that gets moldy. Most pading is filled with cellulose. Oc says it will not promote mold. It will prevent it as long as there is not cellulose in your basement. Mold remediation is vary costly. Your statements are untrue and not backed up with anything but hearsay. All you have to do is go to the Center for Disease and control website. or the Dept. of Energy, build tech. or the hundreds of other websites and info on why drywall and wood do not belong in the basement.
on Nov 07, 2004
I will get this product for $10-$15sq ft., and will post the results
with my salespersons number. This is America.
on Nov 07, 2004
[See previous post from 11/5] The OC guy came back to my house (in MI) today and we talked turkey. After going over all of the details that I wanted in the basement, he came in at $40/sq ft., down from the original $58. As promised, he then further dropped the price because of the "model home" discount to $33/sq ft. This is for 1065 sq ft., which didn't include part of my basement. I then asked him to give me a price for the ENTIRE basement (1500 sq ft). That price came in at just over $31/sq ft. After some additional haggling, we settled on $30.67/sq ft. Based on what I've read on this site, I think I got a good deal on the OC system.

The salesman I dealt with was very professional and not overly pushy. Contrary to other posts, he came out twice, giving me a week to think about it and do my homework, and I still got all of the discounts, including the 15% coupon that was supposed to only be good for the initial visit. Before he came back I got bids from other contractors for a drywall basement for $20-25/sq ft. I figured if I was going to spend $20-25 for drywall, why not spend $30 for the OC system?

As for those who say any price over the cost of materials for the OC system is too high, I ask you what you think your time is worth. My wife and I both work long hours at high stress jobs, have long commutes, and we have a toddler at home. The last thing I need to do with the one free hour per night I have is try to finish the basement by myself. While I'm fairly handy with tools and could probably do the job myself, my free time is far to valuable to me to spend it that way. Rather than spend nights and weekends for the next few months working on the basement, I'd rather spend that time with my family and friends. However, each person's situation is different -- that's just my opinion.

I'll post again when the OC system gets installed. Hopefully I'll get a good installer.
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