Brad Wardell's views about technology, politics, religion, world affairs, and all sorts of politically incorrect topics.
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Published on April 20, 2006 By Draginol In GalCiv Journals

Is multiplayer a required feature in a strategy game? Galactic Civilizations II does not have multiplayer.  And while it has averaged 4.5 stars out of 5 (or better) on the major game sites/magazines, most of the reviews have lamented the lack of multiplayer.

I talked to Bruce Geryk at length on this issue. Bruce reviewed the game for both 1up and Computer Gaming World.  He and I have talked about multiplayer for a long time and in fact he and I played head to head The Political Machine. He was, by far, the toughest opponent I played -- better than anyone internal at Stardock even.

Bruce and I have come full circle on the issue.  When he was younger, he was primarily interested in single player games. But as he's gotten older and busier, he wants his game experiences to be social.  By contrast, when I was younger, I would play multiplayer games like crazy. I would buy games and not even bother to play them single player.

From Warcraft to Total Annihilation to Rise of Nations to HOMM3, I was a junkie for multiplayer. In Total Annihilation I'd spend my days hanging out on TEN looking for people to play. I was even in PGL.  But as I've gotten older, I've become less patient with having hours wasted because my anonymous opponent would disconnect or do something incredibly lame to wreck the game.

My multiplayer experiences over the years could be summarized as follows:

  • 40% of games end in the first 20 minutes due to the player doing some formula early game tactic (like rush). If their tactic failed, they'd disconnect. If they succeeded, the game was over. Either way, very unsatisfying.
  • 30% of the games would end randomly due to a disconnect, crash, or the player having to leave.
  • 20% of the games would end with the player leaving way early simply because they recognized that they would eventually lose. In most strategy games, if you're pretty good, you know you're going to win or lose long before it happens. So those players would simply drop out if the win wasn't almost a certainty. No attempt to even try to make a comeback. Not very satisfying.
  • 10% of the games would actually play to their conclusion and be very fun.

And for that 10%, I would stick it out.  But now I'm older, I don't have time to waste a Sunday afternoon playing people on-line all day in order to find ONE game that wasn't a disaster.

Some on-line advocates, such as Bruce, have friends that they play these games with. I envy him for that.  My friends who play games are either playing totally different games from me or if they are playing a game I might like are at a totally different skill level.  As much as I might like playing a 3 on 1 Rise of Nations game or Warcraft 3 game, I'd rather have a 2 on 2 game or a 1 on 1 game where both sides are reasonably equal. (Battle.net does a decent job of matching people but the percents I mention above are still about the same).

On Bruce's blog he writes:

Brad makes the comment in his post-mortem that he wants GalCiv2 to be the kind of game the you could buy and play two years from now. But I can tell you one thing: without m/p, there is no way I'll be playing GalCiv2 in two years. Frankly, I won't be playing it in two weeks. Without m/p, my interest in playing it past the review period is nearly zero.

I asked him why challenging computer players wouldn't solve this.  His response, to paraphrase, was that when he's on the computer he wants to be interacting with other people, not playing a computer game alone.  I can respect that.  But it's totally the opposite from me.  I spend all day interacting with people on the computer, I absolutely love playing Civilization 4 and other strategy games single player.  I don't want to play a total stranger at a turn based strategy game and I don't know enough people who are good at turn based strategy games who have enough time to dedicate to playing one to the finish.

Troy Goodfellow, who wrote the 4.5 star Computer Games Magazine review writes:

Galactic Civilization II doesn't have MP, Civilization IV does. Both are great games, but guess which one will have a longer life on my hard drive? (And not just mine.) I've been a single player gamer for almost my entire life, but I have finally come to the point where a lot of gamers were a couple of years ago, seeking out multiplayer in every game. Good MP experiences have also made me hungry for real world human contact in gaming. Board gaming, DnD...anything to keep the rush of shared competition going between computer game cycles.

By contrast, Bad MP experiences have made me hungrier for good single player experiences.  I think if we sat down and did an inventory of strategy games that have come out in the past 5 years that the multiplayer fanbase has gotten served quite well.  By contrast, people like me who want to sit down and play against computer players have gotten, in my opinion, the shaft.  When I see my friends in person, I generally play board games with them if we're going to play a game. Ticket to Ride, Twilight Imperium, etc. 

If I had a ready set of friends willing to spend 8 hours straight on the computer playing a turn based strategy game, I could see the temptation.  But that's not the norm.  If I want to play Civilization IV multiplayer, I'm stuck hanging out on GameSpy's multiplayer system looking for total strangers and then we're back to the %'s.  And even if I could solve the problem for myself, I know I'm not alone in this problem. And that's the point - multiplayer people have got tons of games to choose from.  How many strategy games in the past 5 years have made a serious effort to have a strong single player experience? 

The irony is, I am not against multiplayer.  Every other game I've developed for Windows has had multiplayer. GalCiv's the only one that doesn't.  But every time we do it, we come away disappointed.  Disappointed at how few people are using is and disappointed at how many features and changes has to be made to implement it.  I suspect in some future expansion (though not in an expansion for 2006) we'll add in multiplayer.  But if we do, it's not going to be done in the traditional way.  I'd like to do something that creates persistent games -- your games exist on a server that you can come and go back to as you please with your friends over minutes, hours, days, weeks, months. But that's for another discussion.

What got this discussion going was that the game had gotten punished by some (not Bruce though he laments no multiplayer) reviewers.  I had commented on Quarter To Three that no one was taking points off of Oblivion for not having multiplayer -- an RPG after all. Bruce's response to that was that RPG players who want multiplayer have lots of choices.  Turn based strategy gamers don't have as many good options for multiplayer.  But it's not our responsibility to be all things to all people. And besides, Civ 4 has the best multiplayer of any strategy game I've ever seen.

Does that mean that some future GalCiv III won't have multiplayer?  Odds are, it'll have multiplayer. But we won't make sacrifices for it.  The single player experience will always take precedence.  The reason we didn't have multiplayer in GalCiv II is because as a first-time publisher we had to have a price point of $39.95 to get decent shelf space and that meant not having something as expensive as multiplayer (make no mistake, you're paying for multiplayer in that $50 game regardless of whether you use it or not).  A GalCiv III will probably be a >$40 program.  But that's for a looong time into the future. 


Comments (Page 2)
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on Apr 21, 2006
The post brought a tear to my eye...

...Not really, but I completely agree. Many of us don't like multiplayer, and I for one am grateful that you put the effort into developing the SP features first. I like to play video games to relax and get some alone time. I have more than enough real life friends, and I work with people all the time, so its nice to play by myself for a while. That, and I like to finish games quickly, which MP isn't really the best at (unless its a FPS).

Oh, and...

Brad makes the comment in his post-mortem that he wants GalCiv2 to be the kind of game the you could buy and play two years from now. But I can tell you one thing: without m/p, there is no way I'll be playing GalCiv2 in two years. Frankly, I won't be playing it in two weeks. Without m/p, my interest in playing it past the review period is nearly zero.


Reviews like these are the reason I don't buy PC mags anymore. I just don't trust reviewers at all. I either play demo's or get advice from friends who already have. They know what I like, and their opinion is much more important to me than some anonymous writer.
on Apr 21, 2006
Personally I think TBS games are pretty terrible for multiplayer because of many of the reasons posted. The problem is with TBS games the AI is always so poor that the only way you can play the game against a decent opponent is by going through the multiplayer minefield.

Hopefully Gal Civ 2's AI will change this...

Lenius.
on Apr 21, 2006
I would venture to suggest Trent that for the reviewers who take off points for multiplayer, online play = multiplayer. Not to say that your points aren't valid but I doubt a dveloper would gain much by including a LAN only multiplayer feature.

I personally don't use multiplayer. I am an avid board gamer and wargamer and for me that is multiplayer. Games are what I do when I don't have anyone around for either of the above.
on Apr 21, 2006
The thing about multiplayer isn't whether it is a good idea or not to develop but if you can make it work.

The only reason SD shouldn't develop MP is if they aren't up to the task of making it a success. In this chance they clearly aren't confident enough that it will work to everyones benefit, and that to me I can respect. After all professional pride says that you should start to do something unless you can make a half decent hack at it. MP is one of those things that can be hit or miss. If you develop a streamlined easy to use and effective MP system then MP becomes viable, if not then people get pee'd off with the system and claim its crap and start using it.

The game itself isn't an issue, I think GalCiv2 can easily be ported into a MP game. But the trick with be to make that MP workable for the players and making sure it isn't poor. Poorness will come from poor MP coding that causes client crashes, desynchronization, packet loss etc... It also means cheating, and the old favourite of mine, cable pulling. MP isn't just online, it means LANS as well. I couldn't imagine anything cooler than sitting a few of my friends around my house for an all night session of bash the Dreguin as the Torians, Humans and Arcean and Altarians. I remember playing CnC Generals round one of my friends one MAX difficulty at a LAN party and I can tell you that was more fun than any single player game EVER!

But thats properly because that was a RTS and not a TBS game. TBS require time and patience. But even a short game in MP could be fun.

Personally if I had to develop MP for GC2 I'd implement a auto turn feature and a AI take over feature like in MOO3. If a player disconnects or wants to join the game in progress they can join an exist empire or leave the game letting the AI take over the control of the empire. This would stop some disappointing game where players just f* off after the first 10 minutes. I'd also have admin transfer so the admin could leave the game and someone else got admin controls.

The admin would have the ability to set the game status to open and allow someone else to hop into an AI players shoes and take over. These kind of things have already been developed and help keep the game running even if everyone but one player leaves.

I'd also allow game saving and loading, so that players could reload a previous MP game and slot the players into the various sides. I'd also allow the admin to insert a brand new empire into the game and set them to invincible for X number of turns to allow them to get somewhere before fighting etc...

This is exactly what I mean about MP client writing, writing a simple bog standard client won't wrk, you need to have failsafes and features in it that can help keep a game rolling ever after people start to leave.

Anyway thats just my opinions. I'd like to say a MV MP so that empires and and players can duke it out in all GalCiv2s glory.

Ciao

-J
on Apr 21, 2006
What keeps Civ3 and civ4 on my PC isn't the multiplayer but MODS. It doesn't take long for multiplayer to get old after playing a few games. I have a feeling it the same with most gamers
on Apr 21, 2006
"the only people who wont think MP is a good idea are those "Johnny no mates" who dont have friends that play TBS games"

I have two friends at work and a brother who play Civilization and Galactic Civilization for hours and hours and even they could not have good multiplayer with me. One hits the "End Turn" button over and over till he has enough money to buy ships, one never plays any setting but Gigantic/Cakewalk, and my brother plays Civ to relax, not to optimize. He doesn't like Emperor. So I can't play against any of them. They do have a local area network set up for Halo tournaments, but I suck at that game.
on Apr 21, 2006
What keeps Civ3 and civ4 on my PC isn't the multiplayer but MODS.


Absoloutely, I think mods allow for a good online community, and lengthen a games lifespan. I've quickly become tired of some of my multiplayer games, yet many SP games remain on my hard drive, including the Civ series, and Morrowind.
on Apr 21, 2006
Brad makes the comment in his post-mortem that he wants GalCiv2 to be the kind of game the you could buy and play two years from now. But I can tell you one thing: without m/p, there is no way I'll be playing GalCiv2 in two years. Frankly, I won't be playing it in two weeks. Without m/p, my interest in playing it past the review period is nearly zero.


Try with the average MP game to find a couple opponents two years after release.
on Apr 21, 2006
Good online multiplayer can be frustrating when playing with random idiots.

Get a good guild, or a good group of friends, and it becomes a much more rewarding experience. Multiplayer is basically social interaction - one needs someone one likes for that to be fun.

Many a game is still being played because of the social interactions with friends dispite the game having got a little old.

I would much rather be playing GalCiv2 with even one friend also in the game; high quality AI computer players would make this a lot more fun, as it would not be necessarily PvP as such, at least until late game.
on Apr 21, 2006
I'm with you Brad!

People Suck! That's why I play computer games ...

Actually if GalCiv had play by email, I would be all for that. I have no idea how this could be effectively implemented, especially in the early game. Maybe email games would have all players start with 5 planets and a bunch of ships or something.

That's the only multiplayer I would be interested in. Strangers suck, and I can't count on 4 or 5 people being able to coordinate their schedules for 8 or 9 hours.

Dano
on Apr 21, 2006
Personally if I had to develop MP for GC2 I'd implement a auto turn feature and a AI take over feature like in MOO3. If a player disconnects or wants to join the game in progress they can join an exist empire or leave the game letting the AI take over the control of the empire. This would stop some disappointing game where players just f* off after the first 10 minutes. I'd also have admin transfer so the admin could leave the game and someone else got admin controls.

The admin would have the ability to set the game status to open and allow someone else to hop into an AI players shoes and take over. These kind of things have already been developed and help keep the game running even if everyone but one player leaves.

I'd also allow game saving and loading, so that players could reload a previous MP game and slot the players into the various sides. I'd also allow the admin to insert a brand new empire into the game and set them to invincible for X number of turns to allow them to get somewhere before fighting etc...

This is exactly what I mean about MP client writing, writing a simple bog standard client won't wrk, you need to have failsafes and features in it that can help keep a game rolling ever after people start to leave.

Anyway thats just my opinions. I'd like to say a MV MP so that empires and and players can duke it out in all GalCiv2s glory.


I think you're pretty much on the money here. The two problems you need to overcome in multiplayer are:

1. Matching equally skilled people.

2. Dealing with droppers.

Almost every game, outside of FPS "join at any time" games, fails number 2. The excellent AI development of GalCiv2 would help to bring a quality solution to 2.
on Apr 21, 2006
I have to wonder about reviewers who knock a turn-based game for leaving out multiplayer. Unless I'm just hopelessly out of the loop, and someone has actually managed to make a turn-based game that is anything less than an exercise in frustration when played with other people.

But somehow I doubt that anything has changed since I tried and hated multiplayer MOO2. And I was playing with a friend, in the same room no less, and it still sent my blood pressure through the roof.
on Apr 21, 2006
I agree with you --- MP isn't a selling factor for me. Since most reviewers are full time game players I think their opinion on this is off. If I sat all day playing games I would want some social interaction as well. But I want to kick back and relax with my games. I play on dual monitor and I'm usually doing something while playing the game. I don't think anyone else would want to wait 10 minutes before I can move because I'm doing work.

That being said, I do play MP from time to time with my brother. Maybe once a month we will get together online and play for 3-5 hours at a sitting. So I would pay $10 more for this game for that option, but the fact that it didn't have it isn't a factor in me enjoying it.
on Apr 21, 2006
I also used to be a heavy multiplayer gaming, passing on single player games altogether, but I've noticed myself more drawn to a well done single player experience in the last year.

on Apr 21, 2006
I think MP depends on the type of strategy game you're talking about. In a Turn Based game like GalCiv 2 or Civ 4, I think multiplayer is generally crap unless you're playing with someone you know, and are in the same room or can talk to each other. The reason being that in TBS games, it takes FOREVER to execute a turn once you get past the early game. People start to micromanage every planet and every ship, taking ages to complete a turn. Even with a time limit to each turn, it's still a lot of time where you have nothing to do. It's even more frustrating for the micromanager who always feels rushed.

Downtime is the biggest killer, for me at least, for MP TBS games. Lets say you are playing against just one human and set the turn timelimit to 2min. Assume that since it's so short, most will use the full time to execute. In an hour I get in 30 turns, less if there's combat that isn't auto-resolved. How long does an average game last? Hundreds of turns. A 100 turn game (the length of the demo) would take at least 200min or 3.33 hrs. An MP game takes at least twice as long as a SP game. And half of the time you're doing nothing at all... And this is only if you're playing against one human player. Fill the galaxy with humans and a single round can last at least 16min... 26.66hrs for that 100 turn game. And you're only able to do anything for 1/8th of that time! Sitting at your computer for a total of 26.66 hrs but only playing for 3.33 is a bit of a stretch.

RTS games pull off MP well because it's all real-time, there's no sit around and wait. You're building your army and base, so are all of your opponents. Battles rage across the map and you're not interrupted and told to hold on while everything resolves out. Even the most in-depth MP games for an RTS typically won't last more than 3hrs total, and you're actively engaged the entire time.

For MP to truely work well in a mainstream sort of way in TBS games, something needs to be given to the non-active players to do while they wait. Maybe some sort of minigame that gives them a little bonus or extra cash or helps research along. Integrate elements of Political Machine and work a propaganda campaign across a world while you wait for your turn to come around again. Let players have access to the ship designer (with some improvements), let them simulate battles, review the state of their empire in detail (so they don't have to waste time reading numbers in their 2min turn etc). If you want TBS MP to be really good, every minute of playing should provide the player with something to actively do. The between-turns phase should be as enjoyable and useful as the turn itself.
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