Brad Wardell's views about technology, politics, religion, world affairs, and all sorts of politically incorrect topics.
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Published on April 20, 2006 By Draginol In GalCiv Journals

Is multiplayer a required feature in a strategy game? Galactic Civilizations II does not have multiplayer.  And while it has averaged 4.5 stars out of 5 (or better) on the major game sites/magazines, most of the reviews have lamented the lack of multiplayer.

I talked to Bruce Geryk at length on this issue. Bruce reviewed the game for both 1up and Computer Gaming World.  He and I have talked about multiplayer for a long time and in fact he and I played head to head The Political Machine. He was, by far, the toughest opponent I played -- better than anyone internal at Stardock even.

Bruce and I have come full circle on the issue.  When he was younger, he was primarily interested in single player games. But as he's gotten older and busier, he wants his game experiences to be social.  By contrast, when I was younger, I would play multiplayer games like crazy. I would buy games and not even bother to play them single player.

From Warcraft to Total Annihilation to Rise of Nations to HOMM3, I was a junkie for multiplayer. In Total Annihilation I'd spend my days hanging out on TEN looking for people to play. I was even in PGL.  But as I've gotten older, I've become less patient with having hours wasted because my anonymous opponent would disconnect or do something incredibly lame to wreck the game.

My multiplayer experiences over the years could be summarized as follows:

  • 40% of games end in the first 20 minutes due to the player doing some formula early game tactic (like rush). If their tactic failed, they'd disconnect. If they succeeded, the game was over. Either way, very unsatisfying.
  • 30% of the games would end randomly due to a disconnect, crash, or the player having to leave.
  • 20% of the games would end with the player leaving way early simply because they recognized that they would eventually lose. In most strategy games, if you're pretty good, you know you're going to win or lose long before it happens. So those players would simply drop out if the win wasn't almost a certainty. No attempt to even try to make a comeback. Not very satisfying.
  • 10% of the games would actually play to their conclusion and be very fun.

And for that 10%, I would stick it out.  But now I'm older, I don't have time to waste a Sunday afternoon playing people on-line all day in order to find ONE game that wasn't a disaster.

Some on-line advocates, such as Bruce, have friends that they play these games with. I envy him for that.  My friends who play games are either playing totally different games from me or if they are playing a game I might like are at a totally different skill level.  As much as I might like playing a 3 on 1 Rise of Nations game or Warcraft 3 game, I'd rather have a 2 on 2 game or a 1 on 1 game where both sides are reasonably equal. (Battle.net does a decent job of matching people but the percents I mention above are still about the same).

On Bruce's blog he writes:

Brad makes the comment in his post-mortem that he wants GalCiv2 to be the kind of game the you could buy and play two years from now. But I can tell you one thing: without m/p, there is no way I'll be playing GalCiv2 in two years. Frankly, I won't be playing it in two weeks. Without m/p, my interest in playing it past the review period is nearly zero.

I asked him why challenging computer players wouldn't solve this.  His response, to paraphrase, was that when he's on the computer he wants to be interacting with other people, not playing a computer game alone.  I can respect that.  But it's totally the opposite from me.  I spend all day interacting with people on the computer, I absolutely love playing Civilization 4 and other strategy games single player.  I don't want to play a total stranger at a turn based strategy game and I don't know enough people who are good at turn based strategy games who have enough time to dedicate to playing one to the finish.

Troy Goodfellow, who wrote the 4.5 star Computer Games Magazine review writes:

Galactic Civilization II doesn't have MP, Civilization IV does. Both are great games, but guess which one will have a longer life on my hard drive? (And not just mine.) I've been a single player gamer for almost my entire life, but I have finally come to the point where a lot of gamers were a couple of years ago, seeking out multiplayer in every game. Good MP experiences have also made me hungry for real world human contact in gaming. Board gaming, DnD...anything to keep the rush of shared competition going between computer game cycles.

By contrast, Bad MP experiences have made me hungrier for good single player experiences.  I think if we sat down and did an inventory of strategy games that have come out in the past 5 years that the multiplayer fanbase has gotten served quite well.  By contrast, people like me who want to sit down and play against computer players have gotten, in my opinion, the shaft.  When I see my friends in person, I generally play board games with them if we're going to play a game. Ticket to Ride, Twilight Imperium, etc. 

If I had a ready set of friends willing to spend 8 hours straight on the computer playing a turn based strategy game, I could see the temptation.  But that's not the norm.  If I want to play Civilization IV multiplayer, I'm stuck hanging out on GameSpy's multiplayer system looking for total strangers and then we're back to the %'s.  And even if I could solve the problem for myself, I know I'm not alone in this problem. And that's the point - multiplayer people have got tons of games to choose from.  How many strategy games in the past 5 years have made a serious effort to have a strong single player experience? 

The irony is, I am not against multiplayer.  Every other game I've developed for Windows has had multiplayer. GalCiv's the only one that doesn't.  But every time we do it, we come away disappointed.  Disappointed at how few people are using is and disappointed at how many features and changes has to be made to implement it.  I suspect in some future expansion (though not in an expansion for 2006) we'll add in multiplayer.  But if we do, it's not going to be done in the traditional way.  I'd like to do something that creates persistent games -- your games exist on a server that you can come and go back to as you please with your friends over minutes, hours, days, weeks, months. But that's for another discussion.

What got this discussion going was that the game had gotten punished by some (not Bruce though he laments no multiplayer) reviewers.  I had commented on Quarter To Three that no one was taking points off of Oblivion for not having multiplayer -- an RPG after all. Bruce's response to that was that RPG players who want multiplayer have lots of choices.  Turn based strategy gamers don't have as many good options for multiplayer.  But it's not our responsibility to be all things to all people. And besides, Civ 4 has the best multiplayer of any strategy game I've ever seen.

Does that mean that some future GalCiv III won't have multiplayer?  Odds are, it'll have multiplayer. But we won't make sacrifices for it.  The single player experience will always take precedence.  The reason we didn't have multiplayer in GalCiv II is because as a first-time publisher we had to have a price point of $39.95 to get decent shelf space and that meant not having something as expensive as multiplayer (make no mistake, you're paying for multiplayer in that $50 game regardless of whether you use it or not).  A GalCiv III will probably be a >$40 program.  But that's for a looong time into the future. 


Comments (Page 3)
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on Apr 21, 2006
Sure Civ 4 has good MP, but do you realize Firaxis was beaten, battered and abused about MP long before Civ 4 came out? Civ 3 had no MP from the start. The first expansion Play the World brought it as well as some other things. Firaxis was beaten battered and abused again, MP wasn't perfect at the start.

I've had enough bad MP experiences I wouldn't want it. I am referring to what Brad was explaining with his %s. I am very much tired of jack-ass, jerks, and kids. Sometimes they are one and the same, sometimes not. When it comes to RPG, I hope some go back to providing a top notch AAA single player. I need to be shielded from Tards and Punk Kids. Ok, I went on a tangent. Back to topic.

I think people are stupid for wanting MP. Let me caveat this. I think people are stupid for wanting MP, if they want to play pick up games with random people found on the internet. If you have "the boys" or "the gang" wanting to play then you know those folk. That kind of MP is good. This can be either LAN or Internet. There has to be an internet component because Lan only would be restrictive. Sometimes getting "the guys" together is hard, but if we don't have to move our computers its much much easier. One of the most attractive MP I've seen for Civ 4 was the succession games and PBEM. Major fan support at fan sites (Civ Fanatics or Apolyton anyone? ) You've got people discussing games and strategy on forums, having fun. It's FREE ADVERTISING. I would also jump on the XFire bandwagon. Just due to Civ 4 and other MP games using the IM to find other strat gamers.

my 2 bc


on Apr 21, 2006
If I had a ready set of friends willing to spend 8 hours straight on the computer playing a turn based strategy game, I could see the temptation. But that's not the norm.


I tend to disagree. I don't like playing against random unknown people online, because they are generally immature/bad, but playing with actual friends is REALLY FUN. You can't brag against an AI player, heck you can't do a lot of things with an AI player because it isn't real. I love the single player experience much better than the multiplayer experience, because I can do it on my own time, but playing multiplayer is much funner.

Besides you mentioned playing HOMM3 online. I used to play HOMM2 with my friends over a network. We would play a game over multiple days, because we had the ability to save the game. Just do it that way, and you don't need to have the massive amount of time at once to play through a hole game. I have to leave, so I can't continue my argument, but I will write more later.

-Marty
on Apr 21, 2006
Draginol, apperently what keeps you from having generally fun in multiplayer gaming is the lack of reliable and skilled opponents that you at leatst know a bit. There is a solution for that: why don't you join a clan?


There is only 1 game I'll play MP... America's Army. It's also the only first person shooter I'll play because I don't have to worry about poor AI since every "person" in-game is backed by a real person. I quoted the above because I have to admit some of the missions can get very boring and repetitive until clan members show up. Those guy's know how to play the game and I'll accept it as a general given that clan members in other MP games will also up the skill bar a few notches.

Having said that, MP for me is essentially useless. When I'm involved with a MP game it's in a volleyball/softball/darts league, mountain biking or even kayaking on a lake. Instead of changing my gaming style as I've aged, I've gone to fewer computer games in general. While I cruised through CIV III and it's peers, and the Homeworlds, I found the AI's so lacking I stopped buying games for the better part of a couple years and will not go back to the various Empire Builder games because the AI's never got any better. If it weren't for the outstanding AI reviews of GC2 I never would have purchased it either. For me computer games are for rainy/lazy days and the last couple hours before bed. For my style of computer gaming, there's no way I could start a MP strategy game knowing I'd be able to play it all the way through.

When it comes down to it, I have to say "thank you" for making a single player game worth playing.
on Apr 21, 2006
It its a turn based game it should have multiplayer. The secret to multiplayer in TBS has sadly not been learned even though Civ 3 Civ 4 come close to keeping all the animated goodies in multiplayer. The secret to true TBS success to me is this, "The player should always have something to do" even while the other player is taking his or her turn. Whether it be watching others combats or working your planets or ship designe.

Furthermore I think that GalCiv2 couid easily be made multiplayer with all the current bells and whistles and with a good space combat tactical TBS or RTS (I say you could go either way but it would be easier just to make a RTS mini game for space combat you could control out of what you have already in game.)
on Apr 21, 2006
I am too someone who is only interested in single player games.

I have had my time on Multiplayer and eventually i got borred of the monotomy, the almost garenteed insults whether your doing something wrong or not and the people who quit when something doesnt go their way.

Instead me and my friends play galciv2 competitively. We have a board split into sections we each take a species and we move our fleets around the board claiming areas. When two fleets come into contact the controlling players have a game of galciv2 (no of planets, rarity etc is all random (dice rolls) appart from difficulty which is always with inteligent AI players) highest score wins and they claim the sector while the losing fleet is returned to home sector. It works incredibly well and we've had alot of fun playing it because 1) youre playing with people you know and 2) because it isn't direct multiplayer you have all the time you need to play your game. (even works over email)

TBS multiplayer is the complete opposite and it is for that reason i dont think it works.

on Apr 21, 2006
There is, indeed, no love for the single player gamer these days. Thanks for being the exception.


Seconded! However, there seems to be strong demand for multiplier so you might as well create a paid expansion pack for it.
on Apr 21, 2006
Add me to the single-player list. With a family, I don't often have the time to play for long periods; I am much more likely to get in a few turns a night or a few hours on a weekend. And I find I use the game to have time to myself. I don't have to worry about etiquette or anythnig else. If I don't like the game, tank it and start again without upsetting anyone else. My biggest lament is the lack of quality single-player experiences, and GC2 has helped fill a big hole!
on Apr 21, 2006
I echo your sentiments EXACTLY, Brad. i played Anarchy Online for a good 4 months untill I realized noone role-played at all, the average gamer was 14, and there main goal was to somehow annoy everyone else or be insulting.

I also played Dawn of War for a good few months, but encountered the same % that you did. MOst people just formula rushed, there was virtually no diversity, and with multiplayer games you are a slave to the vanilla choices of the game. (in contrast to the easy and immediate modability of single player games, since you arnt interfereing with anyone elses experience)

So with multiplyer games, you get more annoying opponents who just want to be little snots, you get LESS diversity, and you get LESS individual customization, and you rget MUCH MUCH MORE exploit usage.

THank Jesus you focused on single player. I was beginning to think the game industry had abandoned the true elegance of a customized single player experience. Not to mention I echo the above posts that the biggest advantage of SP games is that I can play om MY schedule for 15 minutes to 4 hours however I want.

I Criticize those reviewers, and SHAME ON THEM. You said from the beginning that this was SP only, and yet they criticize you for no MP. Talk about being closed minded.

You have to ask yourself what kind of people become game reviewers. I'll tell you - people who have wasted so much of there life playing MP that they have failed to give themself any other career option other than writing editorials. SO of course, they have enough time to sit around with there freinds and play MP games. If your freinds are consultants, lawyers, programmers, physicians, and engineers, that just doesnt happen.

THank you once again for not compromising the single player.

Magnifico
on Apr 21, 2006
Practically everyone here that complains about multiplayer is only complaining about playing strangers online. I loved multiplayer games growing up: Doom, Quake, C & C; none of which had an option to play random people. If you see that as the problem, just play with people you know. There is quite a community of people on this very forrum who would probably love to test their strategies against yours. Just set up everything in advance. That is how MP used to work, and it is still the most fun way of doing it.
on Apr 21, 2006
What keeps Civ3 and civ4 on my PC isn't the multiplayer but MODS.


Absoloutely, I think mods allow for a good online community, and lengthen a games lifespan. I've quickly become tired of some of my multiplayer games, yet many SP games remain on my hard drive, including the Civ series, and Morrowind.


I think is is the key to any games longevity these days. Even a good MP game will drift away pretty quickly without any changes. BF1942 was doing solid but over the year (since its release) it fell out in favor of newer games. Then the Desert mods and BAM! Back on to my machine.

SP games its even more critical but as there is no MP portion to program it may actually be easier to allow it to be modded. If nothing else ballance is a heck of a lot easier to do.

Its actually for this reason I did not DL the beta 1.2. 1.2 changes the game SO much one might as well consider it a MOD and since I am not yet tired of 1.1 why upgrade yet?

i simply see no reason to try and schedule time with my friends for gaming or sit online waiting when a good SP game will keep me interested for a few months and then with a new update keep me on it for a few more months. more than enough time to get value from the product.
on Apr 21, 2006
I tend to agree that single player should be more focused on. I've dabbled in online random play with FPSes and the like...it really is a crapshoot.

Civ 4 though - man, I can't live without playing my partner at home on the LAN, because it's seamless and perfect. But then again, Soren put that in from the very beginning, and really, it was the *main* focus of development for Civ 4, because it was so buggy and half-assed in 3's expansions. Will I ever play online with random people for a TBS? Not likely at all, but I do enjoy local multiplayer, especially in a coop sense instead of competition. Don't feel the need to bog down GalCivII with thousands of lines of multiplay code if you really don't find it necessary - obviously a good majority of the fan base doesn't, who cares what the reviewers say. If they want MP, tell them to go load up Civ4.

-m.
on Apr 21, 2006
Greetings,

I was an heavy multiplayer game (Starcraft, Diablo, Everquest, etc) and I am even proud to say that I played the first 3D internet RPG (Meridian 59).

But now I can't play those anymores for three simple reasons:
- It takes a long time to have a nice game setup
- When you lose, you are not sure you lost because the other player was better than you or if he cheated
- Once a game is going on, there is a high percentage of disconnects, drops and abandons. So, you are at square one to try to setup a game again.

Thank you
on Apr 21, 2006
my god guys, most of you that posted dont like playing online, but is that a reason to shaft the rest of us? I personally play all sorts of games EXCEPT MMORPG (Mostly Men Online Role Playing Girls) and youmust know that multiplayer is way better then single player can ever be... why? because no matter how long you code and work at an AI its still limited by the scope of its coding.. if it isnt coded to do something its not going to do it! Like for instance you can ally up with an agreement that one guy would do all social techs the other all military.. can you do that in GalCiv2? NO all you can do is form an alliance so that if you goto to war you have a little backup.. thats it.

What happens if you want to do 2 vs 7 co-op on the hardest level? I mean you guys are talking like if they add MP to the game the only way you will be able to play it is to hook into gheyspy's lameass service used by 8 year olds.. what happen to buddys and friends getting together or using the internet to play some games. I mean if your worried about the length of time playing a game play tiny, that should only take about 2 hours max...

I personally love GalCiv II, but i go over to my friends to LAN and also we try to get together via Xfire and play other games together. GalCiv II totally let me down on the MP front this is the only thing i'm disappointed about with this game.

As far as the percentages listed by the Dev above i agree with them.. but only in a public game. Get a clan or empire together and bammo you see the percentages rise to 99% good 1% bad! i mean i havent had time to get really deep into a clan for like 8 years but i can remember play Team Fortress with my clan [DS] making me sweat as i run the flag back to our base for the tie breaking score! i mean i got so pumped that i would stand up and scream at the top of my lungs! AI has never done this for me and probly never will, i believe its simply impossible.

Also MP games simply last longer, if you doubt me look at DOOM i still freaking whip it out and play it with friends of mine because its a blast to play (and its only a few megs ).. but then dont get me wrong if i'm in the mood i play a good game of civ as well.. but civ even being fun doesnt change.. playing doom does. and this is with out any mods to doom. Because each MP game is unique....

Also I think it would be fun modding this game in multi player, heck i can think of a cool game right now capture the frieghter. have a giagantic map with 9 players a frieghter spawns in the middle of the map all players spawn on the edge. You have to send a fleet or something out to it. then you get control. only problem is it moves 1 space per turn.. so you have to defend it the whole way back, all the while expanding and defending you worlds from the other 9 players.. and then set a limit to 30 points to win.. or win by any other means.. sounds like fun to me...

One more thing before i get off my soap box, just because you where playing AO or CS:S and you got attacked by a rabbid 8 year old doesnt make all multiplayer crap. heck i remember when CS beta 1 was out and there where all of 200 people playing it.. everyone knew everyone and there where no lamers.... Dont crush what could be massive fun just because some other game got spoiled by griefers.
on Apr 21, 2006
The single player experience will always take precedence

Thank you.
on Apr 21, 2006
my god guys, most of you that posted dont like playing online, but is that a reason to shaft the rest of us?


I think that's saying it rather strongly. I'm not out to shaft multiplayer, I'm just not interested in it for GC2, so I'd prefer development resources be spent on something that I will enjoy. That said, I'm not going to throw a tantrum if the devs announce that they're commiting resources to multiplayer.

Depending on where you draw the line between friend and associate, I've got between one and two dozen friends that are into computer gaming. Of those, most of them play multiplayer games in some form. Few play multiplayer TBS games, and only one has ever played a multiplayer 4x game for any length of time, and he doesn't have the time for it anymore. So the whole "play with friends on a LAN rather than online" argument doesn't work in my case.
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