Brad Wardell's views about technology, politics, religion, world affairs, and all sorts of politically incorrect topics.
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Published on April 20, 2006 By Draginol In GalCiv Journals

Is multiplayer a required feature in a strategy game? Galactic Civilizations II does not have multiplayer.  And while it has averaged 4.5 stars out of 5 (or better) on the major game sites/magazines, most of the reviews have lamented the lack of multiplayer.

I talked to Bruce Geryk at length on this issue. Bruce reviewed the game for both 1up and Computer Gaming World.  He and I have talked about multiplayer for a long time and in fact he and I played head to head The Political Machine. He was, by far, the toughest opponent I played -- better than anyone internal at Stardock even.

Bruce and I have come full circle on the issue.  When he was younger, he was primarily interested in single player games. But as he's gotten older and busier, he wants his game experiences to be social.  By contrast, when I was younger, I would play multiplayer games like crazy. I would buy games and not even bother to play them single player.

From Warcraft to Total Annihilation to Rise of Nations to HOMM3, I was a junkie for multiplayer. In Total Annihilation I'd spend my days hanging out on TEN looking for people to play. I was even in PGL.  But as I've gotten older, I've become less patient with having hours wasted because my anonymous opponent would disconnect or do something incredibly lame to wreck the game.

My multiplayer experiences over the years could be summarized as follows:

  • 40% of games end in the first 20 minutes due to the player doing some formula early game tactic (like rush). If their tactic failed, they'd disconnect. If they succeeded, the game was over. Either way, very unsatisfying.
  • 30% of the games would end randomly due to a disconnect, crash, or the player having to leave.
  • 20% of the games would end with the player leaving way early simply because they recognized that they would eventually lose. In most strategy games, if you're pretty good, you know you're going to win or lose long before it happens. So those players would simply drop out if the win wasn't almost a certainty. No attempt to even try to make a comeback. Not very satisfying.
  • 10% of the games would actually play to their conclusion and be very fun.

And for that 10%, I would stick it out.  But now I'm older, I don't have time to waste a Sunday afternoon playing people on-line all day in order to find ONE game that wasn't a disaster.

Some on-line advocates, such as Bruce, have friends that they play these games with. I envy him for that.  My friends who play games are either playing totally different games from me or if they are playing a game I might like are at a totally different skill level.  As much as I might like playing a 3 on 1 Rise of Nations game or Warcraft 3 game, I'd rather have a 2 on 2 game or a 1 on 1 game where both sides are reasonably equal. (Battle.net does a decent job of matching people but the percents I mention above are still about the same).

On Bruce's blog he writes:

Brad makes the comment in his post-mortem that he wants GalCiv2 to be the kind of game the you could buy and play two years from now. But I can tell you one thing: without m/p, there is no way I'll be playing GalCiv2 in two years. Frankly, I won't be playing it in two weeks. Without m/p, my interest in playing it past the review period is nearly zero.

I asked him why challenging computer players wouldn't solve this.  His response, to paraphrase, was that when he's on the computer he wants to be interacting with other people, not playing a computer game alone.  I can respect that.  But it's totally the opposite from me.  I spend all day interacting with people on the computer, I absolutely love playing Civilization 4 and other strategy games single player.  I don't want to play a total stranger at a turn based strategy game and I don't know enough people who are good at turn based strategy games who have enough time to dedicate to playing one to the finish.

Troy Goodfellow, who wrote the 4.5 star Computer Games Magazine review writes:

Galactic Civilization II doesn't have MP, Civilization IV does. Both are great games, but guess which one will have a longer life on my hard drive? (And not just mine.) I've been a single player gamer for almost my entire life, but I have finally come to the point where a lot of gamers were a couple of years ago, seeking out multiplayer in every game. Good MP experiences have also made me hungry for real world human contact in gaming. Board gaming, DnD...anything to keep the rush of shared competition going between computer game cycles.

By contrast, Bad MP experiences have made me hungrier for good single player experiences.  I think if we sat down and did an inventory of strategy games that have come out in the past 5 years that the multiplayer fanbase has gotten served quite well.  By contrast, people like me who want to sit down and play against computer players have gotten, in my opinion, the shaft.  When I see my friends in person, I generally play board games with them if we're going to play a game. Ticket to Ride, Twilight Imperium, etc. 

If I had a ready set of friends willing to spend 8 hours straight on the computer playing a turn based strategy game, I could see the temptation.  But that's not the norm.  If I want to play Civilization IV multiplayer, I'm stuck hanging out on GameSpy's multiplayer system looking for total strangers and then we're back to the %'s.  And even if I could solve the problem for myself, I know I'm not alone in this problem. And that's the point - multiplayer people have got tons of games to choose from.  How many strategy games in the past 5 years have made a serious effort to have a strong single player experience? 

The irony is, I am not against multiplayer.  Every other game I've developed for Windows has had multiplayer. GalCiv's the only one that doesn't.  But every time we do it, we come away disappointed.  Disappointed at how few people are using is and disappointed at how many features and changes has to be made to implement it.  I suspect in some future expansion (though not in an expansion for 2006) we'll add in multiplayer.  But if we do, it's not going to be done in the traditional way.  I'd like to do something that creates persistent games -- your games exist on a server that you can come and go back to as you please with your friends over minutes, hours, days, weeks, months. But that's for another discussion.

What got this discussion going was that the game had gotten punished by some (not Bruce though he laments no multiplayer) reviewers.  I had commented on Quarter To Three that no one was taking points off of Oblivion for not having multiplayer -- an RPG after all. Bruce's response to that was that RPG players who want multiplayer have lots of choices.  Turn based strategy gamers don't have as many good options for multiplayer.  But it's not our responsibility to be all things to all people. And besides, Civ 4 has the best multiplayer of any strategy game I've ever seen.

Does that mean that some future GalCiv III won't have multiplayer?  Odds are, it'll have multiplayer. But we won't make sacrifices for it.  The single player experience will always take precedence.  The reason we didn't have multiplayer in GalCiv II is because as a first-time publisher we had to have a price point of $39.95 to get decent shelf space and that meant not having something as expensive as multiplayer (make no mistake, you're paying for multiplayer in that $50 game regardless of whether you use it or not).  A GalCiv III will probably be a >$40 program.  But that's for a looong time into the future. 


Comments (Page 5)
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on Apr 22, 2006

I'm a bit split between mp and sp games these days. On my consoles, I'm strictly a sp gamer. With the majority of my games are rpgs, action, platformers etc. On the computer I find when it comes to strategy games, I'm now moving more into the multiplayer side of it. Turn based games are the exception to me in some cases.



I haven't played a Civ 4 multiplayer game period since I bought it. One because I still suck at the game, and 2 because I really don't want to play for long hours when people take forever making a move.  I agree with Drag about how his multiplayer games work out.  If  the game has enough randomize factors, and some sort of rewards , or something. I'll play single player. TBS games with Mp seem to work if you have a good community, the people who play them for a living, not the people who scream and curse whenever something doesn't go their way.


Oh and about the political machine, for the first month or so I had it, I did look for multiplayer matches, but no one was on.

on Apr 22, 2006

Oh and about the political machine, for the first month or so I had it, I did look for multiplayer matches, but no one was on.

Precisely. As vocal as multiplayer people are, they don't have the numbers to justify the development unless you have a HUGE base of people. The Political Machine sold very well (if GalCiv II sells as many copies at retail as TPM in North America I'll be happy) and yet it was very hard to find opponents.

on Apr 22, 2006
I have to admit, your breakdown of multiplayer strategy matches you've played is spot on - I've given Warcraft III a crack online a few times, and every time I give up on it disapointed. I'm sure if I could get a good match, it would be entertaining, but a good match ahs proven hard to find every time I've attempted to get hold of one. This does however appear to be a strategy genre specific problem - I've played many satisfying FPS matches online (specifically Red Orchestra which has a fantastic online community). I'm not sure how the problems with online strategy gaming could be avoided, but until then I'll be depending upon single player, and GalCiv II has badass single player.
on Apr 22, 2006
 I would want a MP Expansion for GalCiv2. I do like the SP Experience of GC2 but I also would like to be able to play it online! GC2 is the only SP game I have ever bought and thats says a lot on how good this game is,  I usually won't consider buying a game that doesn't include MP! I currently trying to convince some of my Friends that I play online with to give GC2 a chance but its a up hill battle.

Low numbers in MP lobbies only shows part of the MP community.



-Direct IP games don't show up in game lobbies. I never go into game lobbies if I can help it, I meet my Friends online on MSN messenger and then we decide who going to serve and we go play. 



- Play By Email (PBEM) players, their games would never show up in a lobby they form their games in forum and then start a game when they are done finalizing the game settings.



-Hotseat is another MP option that would never show up in a lobby.



-Persistent Turn Based Server's aren't always publicly advertised in a Game lobbies.



-Local Area Network (LAN) games don't show up in a online lobby.



So you really can't judge how many players are playing a game online based just on its MP Lobby!!

on Apr 22, 2006

-Direct IP games don't show up in game lobbies. I never go into game lobbies if I can help it, I meet my Friends online on MSN messenger and then we decide who going to serve and we go play.



- Play By Email (PBEM) players, their games would never show up in a lobby they form their games in forum and then start a game when they are done finalizing the game settings.



-Hotseat is another MP option that would never show up in a lobby.



-Persistent Turn Based Server's aren't always publicly advertised in a Game lobbies.



-Local Area Network (LAN) games don't show up in a online lobby.



So you really can't judge how many players are playing a game online based just on its MP Lobby!!

Sure, you can't go purely by that. But the alternative of "Hey look, trust me, there's a lot of people who want MP" isn't very compelling either.

I don't like making major budget decisions based purely on gut feelings.  Any time one gets into a serious discussion on the size of the strategy MP market, you inevitably get its advocates saying that you can't trust any sort of measurable indicator of size of a given market but rather just their word.

I'm a multiplayer kind of guy and I am saying that there aren't a lot of people playing strategy games mutiplayer compared to single player and that those who do play multiplayer have been served plenty in the past few years while single player gamers have gotten the shaft.

on Apr 22, 2006

Wait TPM sold more so far then Galciv 2 in america? I'm pretty surprised , I guess the machine series is more known then Galciv at the time.



I think another good case about mulitplayer is that right now when I play casual games, such as Ticket to ride or Albatross 18, I really don't mind who I play with. As the games are simple enough and quick enough that it's hard for one person to ruin the game for me.



But when I play more competive or complex games, Rts TBS, etc. I want to play with good people at it. Not someone who will quit after 5 minutes or rushes every time. I think that once the galciv series becomes better known, maybe near the level of Civ, then multiplayer would be a good idea since the fanbase is big enough.

on Apr 22, 2006





Sure, you can't go purely by that. But the alternative of "Hey look, trust me, there's a lot of people who want MP" isn't very compelling either.
I don't like making major budget decisions based purely on gut feelings. Any time one gets into a serious discussion on the size of the strategy MP market, you inevitably get its advocates saying that you can't trust any sort of measurable indicator of size of a given market but rather just their word.
I'm a multiplayer kind of guy and I am saying that there aren't a lot of people playing strategy games mutiplayer compared to single player and that those who do play multiplayer have been served plenty in the past few years while single player gamers have gotten the shaft.



I wouldn't want to be in your shoes when it comes to making market decisions, since you're developing and publishing GC2 I image it's becomes even harder to decide what direction to go next $$$$$$$!! Yes single players have gotten the shaft in the past few years, but really so has Strategy MP gamers (with the one shinning exemption being Civ4  ) most Strategy games(Demos) I try out nowadays I becomes bored within hours and don't consider perusing it any further! I mean with this new trend in RTS games to play a full game in a half-hour or less does not appeal to me at all. I'm referring to "World in Conflict" that PC GAMER is calling the next big step in the RTS genera.. Age of Empires 3 was a joke, I was a HUGE FAN OF Age of Empires 2 and was utterly disappointed with 3.



I guess thats way a finally turned to a single player game like GalCiv2, the demo was terrific and left me wanting more! Even though I knew it didn't have a MP I decided to buy it, and I definitely don't regret doing so! Now I've learned all about Stardock and have become a fan of you're company, I can't wait to try out Society it's looking like (to me) that it is indeed the NEXT BIG STEP IN THE RTS GENERA!!!!!!! 

on Apr 22, 2006
Your not the only one who hated Aoe3, crappy online matchmaking system, pretty unbalanced. I haven't heard much about Society after it was first announced awhile ago, but it does seem interesting.
on Apr 22, 2006
For the love of sweet merciful heaven, I implore you to either vote "yes" or don't vote at all .

Skew the results!
on Apr 22, 2006
Just to add to the chorus...

My experience in multiplayer has also been bad especially for games that take a lot of time. It is so hard to avoid timewasters and impossible to align time with freinds to play - even on my LAN. I used to run a clan for star wars rebellion, but when you get some really good players, the game gets cheesy with nasty tactics.
Having said that, I do own an internet cafe and a lot of customers spend ages playing online role playing games, so there is a niche for some multiplayer games, but this isnt it.
on Apr 23, 2006
Multi-player is a nice option, but I hardly care if it's not included in a strategy game like this. I even have good friends that I can play these games with. We are fairly well matched in ability, and share the same tastes in games as well. We hardly ever do play these games together, however. When we get (virtually) together and decide on a game, it's always something relatively short like an RTS or FPS. More in-depth games like GalCiv2 just take far too long for multi-player.

RTS, FPS, and games like that are for when I want to play a multi-player game. When I can't (or don't want to) play with other people, I want something with dense game-play, something that can keep me absorbed for hours and hours over a period of days or weeks. GalCiv2 is that kind of game, and is why I like it.

I feel for the people who want multi-player though, esp. those who really like playing these games with other people. Good games like this don't come out very often. I imagine it can be frustrating when one does come out and they can't play it with their friends.

Too bad game companies don't have unlimited resources so that everyone's favorite features can be added without taking away from some other aspect of the game.
on Apr 23, 2006
I think the poll results speak for themselves... about 2:1 saying "No I would not pay for MP".

I would much rather have Brad (and team) working on the SP AI (and features) than have them working on MP.

And I completely understand Brad's point of view wrt have some kind of mearues. The whole 'trust me I know what I'm talking about' is just 'opinion' and as a business owner I don't see how Brad can justify adding MP without some kind of sense of the sales numbers backed by some kind of hard data. Development reources are very expensive, spending them in the right place at the right amount is a key business decision. And afterall Stardock is a business.
on Apr 23, 2006
about 2:1 saying "No I would not pay for MP".

Well, you are loking the wrong way: near one third of the people that have answered are ready to pay $20 for MP only. I guess it is a lot more that all previous polls made by Stardock on MP.

I think the poll is to check if there is enough interest, not to see if the majority want an expansion with MP only

on Apr 23, 2006
Quite possible Peace. Just thought the whole 2:1 thing was interesting. And the number of respondents is good too, which will give them a feel for wheither to go foreward with the whole MP thing.
on Apr 23, 2006
Thanks Draginol for putting the single player experience first! Way way too many games treat SP as a "training ground for multiplayer", with very little interest in providing a good gameplay experience. Even many reviewers ignore the SP aspect of games and focus on MP.

Most recently, I spotted this thread on the upcoming Dominions 3, where a player asks if the SP AI will be improved.
Link
The developer's response is, basically, no. It is what it is, and they have little interest in improving it. I had been ready to pre-order Dom3, but that just sunk my interest.

Personally, playing MP with some buddies would be great, but playing with anonymous players over the internet has no appeal to me at all. And since I don't have any buddies interested in TBS, MP has no interest for me at any price.

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