Brad Wardell's views about technology, politics, religion, world affairs, and all sorts of politically incorrect topics.
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Published on April 20, 2006 By Draginol In GalCiv Journals

Is multiplayer a required feature in a strategy game? Galactic Civilizations II does not have multiplayer.  And while it has averaged 4.5 stars out of 5 (or better) on the major game sites/magazines, most of the reviews have lamented the lack of multiplayer.

I talked to Bruce Geryk at length on this issue. Bruce reviewed the game for both 1up and Computer Gaming World.  He and I have talked about multiplayer for a long time and in fact he and I played head to head The Political Machine. He was, by far, the toughest opponent I played -- better than anyone internal at Stardock even.

Bruce and I have come full circle on the issue.  When he was younger, he was primarily interested in single player games. But as he's gotten older and busier, he wants his game experiences to be social.  By contrast, when I was younger, I would play multiplayer games like crazy. I would buy games and not even bother to play them single player.

From Warcraft to Total Annihilation to Rise of Nations to HOMM3, I was a junkie for multiplayer. In Total Annihilation I'd spend my days hanging out on TEN looking for people to play. I was even in PGL.  But as I've gotten older, I've become less patient with having hours wasted because my anonymous opponent would disconnect or do something incredibly lame to wreck the game.

My multiplayer experiences over the years could be summarized as follows:

  • 40% of games end in the first 20 minutes due to the player doing some formula early game tactic (like rush). If their tactic failed, they'd disconnect. If they succeeded, the game was over. Either way, very unsatisfying.
  • 30% of the games would end randomly due to a disconnect, crash, or the player having to leave.
  • 20% of the games would end with the player leaving way early simply because they recognized that they would eventually lose. In most strategy games, if you're pretty good, you know you're going to win or lose long before it happens. So those players would simply drop out if the win wasn't almost a certainty. No attempt to even try to make a comeback. Not very satisfying.
  • 10% of the games would actually play to their conclusion and be very fun.

And for that 10%, I would stick it out.  But now I'm older, I don't have time to waste a Sunday afternoon playing people on-line all day in order to find ONE game that wasn't a disaster.

Some on-line advocates, such as Bruce, have friends that they play these games with. I envy him for that.  My friends who play games are either playing totally different games from me or if they are playing a game I might like are at a totally different skill level.  As much as I might like playing a 3 on 1 Rise of Nations game or Warcraft 3 game, I'd rather have a 2 on 2 game or a 1 on 1 game where both sides are reasonably equal. (Battle.net does a decent job of matching people but the percents I mention above are still about the same).

On Bruce's blog he writes:

Brad makes the comment in his post-mortem that he wants GalCiv2 to be the kind of game the you could buy and play two years from now. But I can tell you one thing: without m/p, there is no way I'll be playing GalCiv2 in two years. Frankly, I won't be playing it in two weeks. Without m/p, my interest in playing it past the review period is nearly zero.

I asked him why challenging computer players wouldn't solve this.  His response, to paraphrase, was that when he's on the computer he wants to be interacting with other people, not playing a computer game alone.  I can respect that.  But it's totally the opposite from me.  I spend all day interacting with people on the computer, I absolutely love playing Civilization 4 and other strategy games single player.  I don't want to play a total stranger at a turn based strategy game and I don't know enough people who are good at turn based strategy games who have enough time to dedicate to playing one to the finish.

Troy Goodfellow, who wrote the 4.5 star Computer Games Magazine review writes:

Galactic Civilization II doesn't have MP, Civilization IV does. Both are great games, but guess which one will have a longer life on my hard drive? (And not just mine.) I've been a single player gamer for almost my entire life, but I have finally come to the point where a lot of gamers were a couple of years ago, seeking out multiplayer in every game. Good MP experiences have also made me hungry for real world human contact in gaming. Board gaming, DnD...anything to keep the rush of shared competition going between computer game cycles.

By contrast, Bad MP experiences have made me hungrier for good single player experiences.  I think if we sat down and did an inventory of strategy games that have come out in the past 5 years that the multiplayer fanbase has gotten served quite well.  By contrast, people like me who want to sit down and play against computer players have gotten, in my opinion, the shaft.  When I see my friends in person, I generally play board games with them if we're going to play a game. Ticket to Ride, Twilight Imperium, etc. 

If I had a ready set of friends willing to spend 8 hours straight on the computer playing a turn based strategy game, I could see the temptation.  But that's not the norm.  If I want to play Civilization IV multiplayer, I'm stuck hanging out on GameSpy's multiplayer system looking for total strangers and then we're back to the %'s.  And even if I could solve the problem for myself, I know I'm not alone in this problem. And that's the point - multiplayer people have got tons of games to choose from.  How many strategy games in the past 5 years have made a serious effort to have a strong single player experience? 

The irony is, I am not against multiplayer.  Every other game I've developed for Windows has had multiplayer. GalCiv's the only one that doesn't.  But every time we do it, we come away disappointed.  Disappointed at how few people are using is and disappointed at how many features and changes has to be made to implement it.  I suspect in some future expansion (though not in an expansion for 2006) we'll add in multiplayer.  But if we do, it's not going to be done in the traditional way.  I'd like to do something that creates persistent games -- your games exist on a server that you can come and go back to as you please with your friends over minutes, hours, days, weeks, months. But that's for another discussion.

What got this discussion going was that the game had gotten punished by some (not Bruce though he laments no multiplayer) reviewers.  I had commented on Quarter To Three that no one was taking points off of Oblivion for not having multiplayer -- an RPG after all. Bruce's response to that was that RPG players who want multiplayer have lots of choices.  Turn based strategy gamers don't have as many good options for multiplayer.  But it's not our responsibility to be all things to all people. And besides, Civ 4 has the best multiplayer of any strategy game I've ever seen.

Does that mean that some future GalCiv III won't have multiplayer?  Odds are, it'll have multiplayer. But we won't make sacrifices for it.  The single player experience will always take precedence.  The reason we didn't have multiplayer in GalCiv II is because as a first-time publisher we had to have a price point of $39.95 to get decent shelf space and that meant not having something as expensive as multiplayer (make no mistake, you're paying for multiplayer in that $50 game regardless of whether you use it or not).  A GalCiv III will probably be a >$40 program.  But that's for a looong time into the future. 


Comments (Page 4)
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on Apr 21, 2006
my god guys, most of you that posted dont like playing online, but is that a reason to shaft the rest of us?


Welcome to our world. There are countless games out there that focus on MP to the utter detriment of SP. The only solution available to us is to find something else to play. If you don't like a game that focuses on SP to the exclusion of MP, I suggest you go play one of the countless games made for folks like you and leave us to one of the very few made for folks like us.
on Apr 21, 2006
The single player experience will always take precedence


Best decision ever!

In the past I've played lots of multiplayer games, be it strategy games or shooters. But nowadays I just don't have the patience for them. Most of my friends only play egoshooters anyway and they don't want to play strategy games against me (can't blame them, since they lose all the time as I lose all the time on shooters).

Now the only game I'm playing in the net is "TA Spring", a 3D open source conversion of the old Total Annihilation (btw. TA is still the best real time strategy game ever ).

What really annoyed me in tha last few years is the lack of good single player rpg and strategy games. Most of them got multiplayer, but suck at the single player experience because of that.

What I want is a new Baldurs Gate, a new C&C with Kane (David Kucan). Not those useless and unfun things as Neverwinter Nights and C&C Generals who were only made for the multiplayer crowd and are only fun for them. If I play games I want to relax, suspension of disbelief, alternate reality, whatever. If I want to have contact with people I play a cardboard game with friends, online shooters, etc. But the last I would do is playing a turn based strategy game in multiplayer.

So, continue with what your doing Stardock, I'll love you because of that.
on Apr 21, 2006
One key point that hasn't been mentioned is that taking a TBS game MP is not as simple as bolting on a communications layer and making sure it doesn't get laggy or drop. If a game is to be MP every playable faction has to be EXACTLY balanced.

Every MP game has huge fan debates about how one faction/character class MUST BE NERFED OMG!!!! If GC2 was MP, far too many of Stardocks resources would have been devoted to the task of balancing to have made the game as good as it is. In addition the fact that the factions don't have to be balanced means there can be much more flavor. Races can be truly different and offer different challenges, some easier and some harder, not just different art for essentially the same units. This is only possible because the game is SP not MP.

Really, it's not as simple as "adding multiplayer". A game is either SP or MP, and you can't ever change it's inherent character.

As for those MPers who say "why are you ruining it for the rest of us". ---Bite me.--- SP is dying, even the civilization series is being dumbed down for multiplayer. You have many choices, we have few, when we find a gem of our own, leave us the hell alone.

Mr. Lucky
on Apr 21, 2006

There is, indeed, no love for the single player gamer these days. Thanks for being the exception.


Agreed.

In my vast gaming history I've played countless hours of DnD, risk, and tons of board games. In the distant past I had a regular group of friends to do that kind of thing with. Over the years, on rare occasions, some of us have been able to play competitive PC games together online and it simply wasn't as much fun. Even playing something like Diablo II cooperative wasn't that fun due to competition for loot.

I also don't think playing any type of game other than a MMORPG or other RPG type of game online is very social. How can you have much time to chat when you're on the clock or in the middle of a RTS clicking frenzy? You might be playing against other people but how social is it? If you use voice chat or play on a LAN in the same room - that'd be different. Playing anonymous people over the net...nah.

I love Civ IV and GalCiv 2 but it's incredibly unlikely that I'll ever play either of them multiplayer (if GC2 had MP). I also think that turn-based strategy games don't lend themselves well to MP. You'd have to have very dedicated players to get thru the hours of play it'd take. Conquest in either game takes longer due to all the extra micro of war and war units. And you gotta figure that most MP games are going to involve a lot of war, it's not like human players will sit around and watch you achieve a nonconquest victory type. This makes for some long potentially games.

I'll be buying Titan Quest the moment it ships...might even preorder...and the only way I'd play it online is with my brother and with friends...and only because it's cooperative.

Rise of Nations is my favorite RTS of all time - but I'd never play it MP - because I don't want to memorize the 200 hotkeys I'd need to know to be competitive and because I don't want to reduce the game down to a frenzied clickfest of optimal efficiency and tactics I don't enjoy. I love that game singleplayer because it has sweet gameplay and even though a game can be finished in an hour you can do it leisurely.

A lot of reviewers love multiplayer. Well, if I got PAID to play games and sat in an office with other people getting paid to play games all day I'd probably do a lot more multiplayer too. They have a built in pool of regular people to play with and they most likely don't have to put up with the crap you deal with in the regular online MP community. They might even play with these same people after hours for more MP gaming.

In this regard, I don't think your average reviewer matches your average PC game player. Most players don't get paid to play games all day with other people. Some players might have a regular pool of people to do MP with, but I bet most do not. I ignore reviewers when they say a game is great but lacks multiplayer.

To me a truly great game has good AI and is fun in single player mode. If it does MP too that's great for the minority that want MP. What is not fun is when games don't have good SP gameplay or they're intentionally weak SP with the expectation of quality MP being the focus.
on Apr 21, 2006
Just an idea here that seems like somewhat of a compromise- has there been any discussion or thought about doing a cooperative-mode multiplayer? Basically, you'd take the various areas of the game-

Ship design
Planetary management
Diplomacy
Fleet management
Spying
Research

And allow those areas to be siphoned off to the different players sharing a race. So Person 1 could be in charge of all of the economic-stuff while Person 2 could work on all the military stuff. And if one player had to back out the other would just pick up their areas. It may or may not scale well, but that way multiple people could work together on a race against the others but not be as complicated as fighting against each other and should go more quickly than trying to do that all at one time. I admit this isn't a great implementation, but one that would satisfy on a small scale (even if it was only direct connect or LAN-based) a multiplayer function. You could even swap areas of control at will, alternate every turn, etc. I'm all about single player, but it is fun to be able to LAN even TBS games with friends when they're over to visit as a social thing.
on Apr 21, 2006
RE: Multiplayer

I have no love for cheaters, droppers, or general Asshats.....but I do like multiplayer.

I appreciate that you (Frogboy) have a personal bias towards what would acceptible/unacceptible in a multiplayer experience, and I can see that you are open to exploring options to implement it in GC2.

I do understand that, from a developer/publish point of view, MP can be a pain. But, some of us do like it (and are willing to pay for it).

EDIT: Rereading your final comments, can you please clarify something for me.... Will GC2 EVER have a Multiplayer Option, either through a patch or expansion?
on Apr 21, 2006
I like multiplayer. Perhaps it is the people you play with, and not the mode you are playing. Dont have a group of friends to play with? Use the forums. It is very easy. You will take a week or two to get a "steady" group of regulars, but once you do, you wont go back.

I am not the best TBS guy in the world, but even with very good AI (which Gal Civ has) once you learn the "trick" your chances of success are almost assured against even the best AI. That means removal from harddrive for me. Not so with Humans.

I am ashamed to admit it, but I played the heck outta MOO3. The single player was horrid. BUT I met a group of about 6 people on a fansite forum and we played for about 2 hours a night for many moths. We used teamspeak, timed turns, and if people dropped, the AI (even as horrid as it was) took over so you didnt have to start anew. It allowed you to save the games and load them up later. For me at least, MP made a horrid game very fun.

But GalCiv is not a horrid game. It would be great. Have an organizational service here where feedback could be reported on player drops and completed games. Have a toggle where a human playing on one end could turn on the AI for his team for a few turns while he goes out and has a smoke, goes to the fridge, or whatever - thus not interrupting the flow of the game.

I would LOVE to get my butt handed to me by some better players. It would be great fun. MP. Please.
on Apr 21, 2006
The way I read that they're looking for the best way to implement multiplayer without compromising the single player experience (and without the usual troubes inherent to TBS multiplayer) and are hoping to be able to implement it in the future (probably a good sitance into the future).

I think most of the people aren't so much opposed to MP as they are opposed to multiplayer taking precedence over single player in game design. As long as SP remains the focus of the game, MP is harmless enough.
on Apr 21, 2006
I enjoy MP but I completely agree with the points against it, and I'm glad it's not in GC2.
on Apr 21, 2006
to be honest i've never been a fan of online multiplay for many of the reasons listed in the journal entry, but also because this isnt the kind of game i'd play online anyway.. now a non online multiplayer player "Hot seat" game with alternating player turns on a single computer..YES..that I would play because we can always save and everyone can come back to it later and play it on the same computer at another time.

Also a LAN option is nice for a few locally networked computers..but online multiplay ick..save it for the shoot em ups.. theres enough bot users, and irate kids in need of a slap out there playing multiplayer online games as it is without destroying the atmosphere this excellant game produces by letting them run rampant over it online.

Oh and to the ship pack art question HELL yes.. would definitely buy something like that.
on Apr 21, 2006
I think most of the people aren't so much opposed to MP as they are opposed to multiplayer taking precedence over single player in game design. As long as SP remains the focus of the game, MP is harmless enough.


Exactly my thoughts, Vinraith. I wouldn't mind at all if GalCiv2 gets multiplayer added on; I might even use it every now and then. But I don't ever want such a feature implemented at the expense of compromising the singleplayer experience, and this is what usually happens with most games--particularly RPG and strategy titles.
on Apr 22, 2006
I don't give a damn about multiplayer. Never have, never will. In any form of game.

Mostly it's because it's REALLY hard to find someone to play against who's not a total ********. I get enough crap at work, I don't need it when I'm home playing a game. Also, it often takes time to set up the kind of multiplayer game you want to play, waiting for opponents who want the same game settings as you do, etc, you always have ******* who quit because they're losing (leaving you with an unbalanced game, so you might as well stop playing), or people for whom the idea of a 14 second rush is the ultimate kick (I HATE rushes. Yay, you won, wow, did you have fun in your 47 seconds of playing a game?) etc etc etc etc.

In a SP game, you can play what YOU want, don't have to put up with whining (well, outside the diplomacy screen anyways ), you can start immediately, and can play for as long as you want, and if you need/want to do something else, save and quit, nobody's hurt.

As long as the AI is as great as it is in this game, I have zero reasons to go multiplayer.

Having said that, I LOVE everything coop, and a coop ability (ie you and a buddy against four AIs) would be fantastic. I realise that that is exactly the same as a multiplayer ability, so I guess in the end I have no opinion for or against multiplayer. There, wasn't that useful?
on Apr 22, 2006
I think the problem with MP for a TBS is the waiting for the opponents turn. Now Civ IV has a simutaneous turn system thingy which personally i dont like but it does show some interesting ideas, HOMM is shipping with a ghost feature where you can use a ghost to harrass your opponent during their turn. One thing holding back GalCiv 2 for multiplayer is the ship design, simple answer why not make it so you design you're ships in your opponents turn. I know its a simple answer and only one answer to the miriad of problems there will be, but i suppose its a start.

Like i said before i tottaly agree with the MP not comprimising single player. And i also agree to the people who dont like the people they play on MP, but another answer to that is this very community. Reading these boards there is alot of like minded people who want to play GalCiv2 and are devoted to it and i think it a strong enough community to provide ample intelligent and mature players to test your skill against.

I probably wont use MP if it is implimented but i am not totally apposed to it because the PC market today seems to demand MP and if implimenting MP in an expansion or patch creates more sales of GalCiv2 for stardock and leads to more games and GalCiv3, 4, 5+ then i fully support it.
on Apr 22, 2006
My MP experience is similar to Brad's.
I will often not purchase a game made for MP. Even very good games, great for MP (such as AoW), are unusable for me; I want to have a quiet, mindless time of my own in front of my machine; I dont want to have to connect to the net and wait for people to submit turns. I would MUCH rather spend my money on good AI than on MP.
Thank you, Stardock!
on Apr 22, 2006
I rarely have 2 hours together to play a game, so SP is the only option for me. Thanks for providing a great SP experience. It is the only way I'd play even if MP was available.
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