Brad Wardell's views about technology, politics, religion, world affairs, and all sorts of politically incorrect topics.
Views from the net
Published on April 20, 2006 By Draginol In GalCiv Journals

Is multiplayer a required feature in a strategy game? Galactic Civilizations II does not have multiplayer.  And while it has averaged 4.5 stars out of 5 (or better) on the major game sites/magazines, most of the reviews have lamented the lack of multiplayer.

I talked to Bruce Geryk at length on this issue. Bruce reviewed the game for both 1up and Computer Gaming World.  He and I have talked about multiplayer for a long time and in fact he and I played head to head The Political Machine. He was, by far, the toughest opponent I played -- better than anyone internal at Stardock even.

Bruce and I have come full circle on the issue.  When he was younger, he was primarily interested in single player games. But as he's gotten older and busier, he wants his game experiences to be social.  By contrast, when I was younger, I would play multiplayer games like crazy. I would buy games and not even bother to play them single player.

From Warcraft to Total Annihilation to Rise of Nations to HOMM3, I was a junkie for multiplayer. In Total Annihilation I'd spend my days hanging out on TEN looking for people to play. I was even in PGL.  But as I've gotten older, I've become less patient with having hours wasted because my anonymous opponent would disconnect or do something incredibly lame to wreck the game.

My multiplayer experiences over the years could be summarized as follows:

  • 40% of games end in the first 20 minutes due to the player doing some formula early game tactic (like rush). If their tactic failed, they'd disconnect. If they succeeded, the game was over. Either way, very unsatisfying.
  • 30% of the games would end randomly due to a disconnect, crash, or the player having to leave.
  • 20% of the games would end with the player leaving way early simply because they recognized that they would eventually lose. In most strategy games, if you're pretty good, you know you're going to win or lose long before it happens. So those players would simply drop out if the win wasn't almost a certainty. No attempt to even try to make a comeback. Not very satisfying.
  • 10% of the games would actually play to their conclusion and be very fun.

And for that 10%, I would stick it out.  But now I'm older, I don't have time to waste a Sunday afternoon playing people on-line all day in order to find ONE game that wasn't a disaster.

Some on-line advocates, such as Bruce, have friends that they play these games with. I envy him for that.  My friends who play games are either playing totally different games from me or if they are playing a game I might like are at a totally different skill level.  As much as I might like playing a 3 on 1 Rise of Nations game or Warcraft 3 game, I'd rather have a 2 on 2 game or a 1 on 1 game where both sides are reasonably equal. (Battle.net does a decent job of matching people but the percents I mention above are still about the same).

On Bruce's blog he writes:

Brad makes the comment in his post-mortem that he wants GalCiv2 to be the kind of game the you could buy and play two years from now. But I can tell you one thing: without m/p, there is no way I'll be playing GalCiv2 in two years. Frankly, I won't be playing it in two weeks. Without m/p, my interest in playing it past the review period is nearly zero.

I asked him why challenging computer players wouldn't solve this.  His response, to paraphrase, was that when he's on the computer he wants to be interacting with other people, not playing a computer game alone.  I can respect that.  But it's totally the opposite from me.  I spend all day interacting with people on the computer, I absolutely love playing Civilization 4 and other strategy games single player.  I don't want to play a total stranger at a turn based strategy game and I don't know enough people who are good at turn based strategy games who have enough time to dedicate to playing one to the finish.

Troy Goodfellow, who wrote the 4.5 star Computer Games Magazine review writes:

Galactic Civilization II doesn't have MP, Civilization IV does. Both are great games, but guess which one will have a longer life on my hard drive? (And not just mine.) I've been a single player gamer for almost my entire life, but I have finally come to the point where a lot of gamers were a couple of years ago, seeking out multiplayer in every game. Good MP experiences have also made me hungry for real world human contact in gaming. Board gaming, DnD...anything to keep the rush of shared competition going between computer game cycles.

By contrast, Bad MP experiences have made me hungrier for good single player experiences.  I think if we sat down and did an inventory of strategy games that have come out in the past 5 years that the multiplayer fanbase has gotten served quite well.  By contrast, people like me who want to sit down and play against computer players have gotten, in my opinion, the shaft.  When I see my friends in person, I generally play board games with them if we're going to play a game. Ticket to Ride, Twilight Imperium, etc. 

If I had a ready set of friends willing to spend 8 hours straight on the computer playing a turn based strategy game, I could see the temptation.  But that's not the norm.  If I want to play Civilization IV multiplayer, I'm stuck hanging out on GameSpy's multiplayer system looking for total strangers and then we're back to the %'s.  And even if I could solve the problem for myself, I know I'm not alone in this problem. And that's the point - multiplayer people have got tons of games to choose from.  How many strategy games in the past 5 years have made a serious effort to have a strong single player experience? 

The irony is, I am not against multiplayer.  Every other game I've developed for Windows has had multiplayer. GalCiv's the only one that doesn't.  But every time we do it, we come away disappointed.  Disappointed at how few people are using is and disappointed at how many features and changes has to be made to implement it.  I suspect in some future expansion (though not in an expansion for 2006) we'll add in multiplayer.  But if we do, it's not going to be done in the traditional way.  I'd like to do something that creates persistent games -- your games exist on a server that you can come and go back to as you please with your friends over minutes, hours, days, weeks, months. But that's for another discussion.

What got this discussion going was that the game had gotten punished by some (not Bruce though he laments no multiplayer) reviewers.  I had commented on Quarter To Three that no one was taking points off of Oblivion for not having multiplayer -- an RPG after all. Bruce's response to that was that RPG players who want multiplayer have lots of choices.  Turn based strategy gamers don't have as many good options for multiplayer.  But it's not our responsibility to be all things to all people. And besides, Civ 4 has the best multiplayer of any strategy game I've ever seen.

Does that mean that some future GalCiv III won't have multiplayer?  Odds are, it'll have multiplayer. But we won't make sacrifices for it.  The single player experience will always take precedence.  The reason we didn't have multiplayer in GalCiv II is because as a first-time publisher we had to have a price point of $39.95 to get decent shelf space and that meant not having something as expensive as multiplayer (make no mistake, you're paying for multiplayer in that $50 game regardless of whether you use it or not).  A GalCiv III will probably be a >$40 program.  But that's for a looong time into the future. 


Comments (Page 6)
7 PagesFirst 4 5 6 7 
on Apr 23, 2006

Most recently, I spotted this thread on the upcoming Dominions 3, where a player asks if the SP AI will be improved.
Link
The developer's response is, basically, no. It is what it is, and they have little interest in improving it. I had been ready to pre-order Dom3, but that just sunk my interest.


Wow, thanks for posting that. Yours isn't the only preorder they just lost. Further proof that the MP obsessed have plenty of options and the SP gamers have virtually none.
on Apr 24, 2006
I had commented on Quarter To Three that no one was taking points off of Oblivion for not having multiplayer -- an RPG after all. Bruce's response to that was that RPG players who want multiplayer have lots of choices.


I dare him to name a good one that isn't Neverwinter Nights, and isn't a MMORPG.

Most end up being a single player game that supports MP, and play vastly better in single player.
If they want to not take points off for Oblivion, I'd love to hear about these good RPGs that have good multiplayer.

I'm tired of reviews taking off for features the reviewer wants, rather then rating the game on what it is and does. Its not the job of every game developer to make games that reviewers want. Not being multiplayer takes nothing away from the game.

They wanna take off for no multiplayer? Fine, do it consistantly. Otherwise, just make a note that the game is single player only.

Sorry if that sounds discombobulated. Brain my fried is.
on Apr 25, 2006
Playing with yourself is fun, no doubt about it. But isnt it much more fun when someone else is there enjoying it with you?
on Apr 27, 2006
TBS is not complete for me without HOTSEAT, like in chess, players take turns in playing on the same board (in this case computer) i have never played heroes of might and magic over the internet, but i have played it hundreds of times on hotseat!
on Apr 29, 2006
Only multiplayer games ae good. I want to play with friends and AI together, thats fun. Of course the games need als very good single player mode.
on Apr 30, 2006
I love this thread...I play single player games for the most part. My favortie strategy game is Knights of Honor which has multi-player for massive battles only. The campaign game is only single player. If it had multi-player for the campaign game it would probably mean nothing because it is a fairly unknown game and there would be few people playing it.
I bought Civ 4 for the express purpose of playing MP - I ran into the problems stated in the first post - plus it was hard to get into a game because I didnt know anyone. I played by email for awhile but all that is is a more prolonged and boring example of the regular games...people drop out and dont tell anyone...people take weeks to take a turn, etc. In my humble opinion Civ 3 was a much more enjoyable single player experience than Civ 4.
I had to stop playing GalCiv 2 for awhile because it was just too addictive...1 more turn became 1 more hour became - Oh Man! it's 4 am.
I play RP games like everquest and wow for 3 or so months and then they become ultra-boring - to play with the people I statrted I have to keep leveling or get left behind...but then you have to choose - keep up with set A of friends and leave set B behind or vice versa. Lastly - being an older player the immaturity of what at time seems like the majority can become overwhelming. Give me single plaayer any day, at least then I know I suck because I suck not because everyone esle is cheating.
on May 10, 2006


Brad makes the comment in his post-mortem that he wants GalCiv2 to be the kind of game the you could buy and play two years from now. But I can tell you one thing: without m/p, there is no way I'll be playing GalCiv2 in two years. Frankly, I won't be playing it in two weeks. Without m/p, my interest in playing it past the review period is nearly zero.

Try with the average MP game to find a couple opponents two years after release.


Total Annihilation - still play MP LAN/VPN with friends;
Star Wars Rebellion - still play MP LAN/VPN with friends;
Civ3 was playing MP until civ4 came out;
Baldur's Gate 2 - still play MP LAN/VPN with friends;
Command HQ - played occasionally MP LAN/VPN until about 5 years ago (game was released in the late 80's early 90's I think);
Master Of Orion 2 - still play MP LAN/VPN with friends;
Harpoon 2 - still play MP LAN/VPN with friends;
688 attack sub - played for about 5 years MP.
Everquest (although I guess that falls outside the parameters of an 'average' MP game )
on Mar 28, 2008
I'm Stars! player (this game was relased in 1995 (so now this game is 13 yeards old), and in most countries this game is still very popular. Of course this game has very simple graphics (like MS Excel) but have this small "thing".
Stars! is not projected for single player (because the AI is total idiot, I think) but this the main type is "multiplayer" executed by PBEM system.

Maximum 10% players are retreated from this game. Why?
Sometimes players want to surrender, but this option is imposiible to do...

And popularity of game is growing up and up nad up... (f.e. SE-IV, MoO2)
But why can I play in THIS game (GalCIv2) if I cannot play with other humans?
Advanced AI is still worse than human...

And
on Mar 28, 2008
...this was a TWO YEAR OLD thread.

I think that I'm going to have to ask the DM to make everyone's prohibited school Necromancy in this campaign.
on Mar 30, 2008
I am not personally into multiplayer. I have nothing against it. In the past, i never have dedicated internet connection at home, so i never had a chance to experience multiplayer for many genere of games. But when i do have dedicated access, i never found time for it. Let's see, i don't have time for any of the MMORGs, i looked at what other people does on MMORG and the time they spent on it, i never have the willingness for that type of time committment. I get motion sickness extremely easily, so no online FPS, and for RTS, i find that my playing style do not suit online playing. I am so used to playing opponents, i does things very very slowly. I recently discovered when playing SIns, i play the way i play a computer, and i constantly get beaten up by other players who does everything faster than me. For TBS type games, i just want to play it for single player experience, if i want something multiplayer, i would rather play chess online.

And as for whether TBS games should include multiplayer. Well the answer is no. but i think for mulitplayer, one has to have the time for it. For myself personally, i really don't. also, there needs to be time to learn how to play proficiently at it because the dynamics and pace in multiplayer game are different. I recently spoke to my friend who loves to play DOTA, one of the popular warcraft 3 multiplayer maps. He said i would not be good at it because i like to play things slowly and it takes a lot of time to be good at it.

I really like Galciv 2 because there is a simplicity in game design without sacraficing strategic depth, i have bought the game from the time it came out. And i have to say even to this day, i still love to play the game. I tried Civ 4 and space empires 5, they are great games, but i prefer galciv 2 better because of its simplicity and elegance in design.

Also i noticed one other thing for multiplayer that is very very different compare with single players. Which is the reasons why rushes occur so often early on in the game. It is the same be it in Sins or in Starcraft. That is, in multiplayer, a lot the techs in a upper tech tree do not get to be researched. The point of multiplayer is for you to defeat your opponents as quickly as possible, so most of the time one is spending the time learning how not to get your butt being kicked early on. But for me, when i play a game, i like to see all the design features of a game to be in play, that means many of the higher tech gets to be researched and being able to play with by all sides. But since that this is not possible for many players. I was told "why bother researching all the techs, players don't have time to sit through a multiplayer game session for hours and hours." I would also hear "yeah, good luck trying to be able to research all the tech, in starcraft, you do that, you will be dead before you reach the upper end of the tech tree." Hence for me in many RTS games, i love the single player experience. If i have to choose, i prefer single player anyday.
on Mar 30, 2008

A game doesn't need multiplayer to have longevity, I think the reason why people think that is because it's the COMMUNITY that gives a game such longevity - and it's much easier for multiplayer games, obviously due to their nature, to build up such a community. A community gives people a reason to keep playing, because all of us love to share our experience and compare our games and abilities.

Why is it that a game like Donkey Kong, a single player arcade game that's over 20 years old, can still interest thousands of people and have people still notching up new high scores to this day? because there is a massive community of people who play classic arcade games.

I think the Metaverse and forums have gone a long way to allow people to develop a community for GC2 and share their experiences. For me, reading someone's AAR or posting a metaverse game up gives me as much satisfaction as playing someone in Warcraft3 online. I don't think multiplayer is necessary for the kind of interaction that keeps people interested in a game.


on Mar 31, 2008
I think Brad's friend Bruce is missing something when he criticize Galciv 2 for lack of multiplayer. that is a game's replayability value. if a game do not have multiplayer value, then for it to have long shevle life, it needs to have great replayability value. Galciv 2 and the civ 4 series has plenty of that. Everytime i play either of these games, i feel like i am playing a different game. The game Overlord is a great and fun RTS, but it is very linear and after the first round through it, i can't count on going through the game second time to experience something new.
on Mar 31, 2008
I have stated quite some times my case for multiplayer, but in the context of this post by Draginol, I want to state one of my key experiences which make me post every few months another request for hotseat.

The game with the most longevity I have experienced is Master of Orion 2. While it has some pretty obvious design flaws ( terrible diplomacy AI, for example ), the otherwise excellent gameplay and hotseat MP has guaranteed that every few months some of my friends get together and play another session against each, to this day.

While I have bought GC2 and the expansions, I suspect I will play it much less in future years, because I won´t have the chance to sit down with my friends for a nice hotseat game.

That´s my case for hotseat, I hope the devs still implement it, after the release of the Political Machine.
on Mar 31, 2008
I have never played a turn based strat. game multiplayer ,(even those that have it) and have no desire too.

on Apr 10, 2008
I think Brad's friend Bruce is missing something when he criticize Galciv 2 for lack of multiplayer. that is a game's replayability value. if a game do not have multiplayer value, then for it to have long shevle life, it needs to have great replayability value.
Totally agree. A strategy game's value is in the infinite replayability of single player, and I don't want to see one minute of dev time diverted from this to multiplayer. A regular FPS is different, you play through it once and there is nothing left except multiplayer. By "regular" fps, I mean not Deus Ex or System Shock

7 PagesFirst 4 5 6 7