Brad Wardell's views about technology, politics, religion, world affairs, and all sorts of politically incorrect topics.
Raising the minimum wage paves the way for kiosks...
Published on April 4, 2004 By Draginol In Politics

The economy is a complicated thing. That is, as a general rule, I don't like politicians of either party monkeying around with it.  The average politician has virtually no understanding about economics. Often times, it's worse than no understanding -- often they have no common sense about it.

Let's use the minimum wage laws as an example.  To help those who make relatively little money, some people argue that we need to raise minimum wage.  So let's say we raise it to oh...$9. Now, I'm not going to bore you with statistics about the fact that most people who make low wages are employed by small businesses who would simply hire fewer people. I won't point out that such things help encourage outsourcing or hiring illegal immigrants. I won't point out that in the cases where it doesn't cost jobs it instead raises costs which are then passed on to us all in higher prices which put us back at square one.  These are all interesting but ultimately too debatable.

Instead, I'm going to use an example that most people, I think, can recognize the truth in.  Fast food.  McDonalds, Burger King, and other fast food restaurants employ approximately 12 million people. That's a lot of people. Most of them make between minimum wage and $8 per hour depending on where they live.

So let's say suddenly minimum wage jumped to $9 per hour. That's a huge cost increase for those restaurants. So what do you think they'd do? I'll tell you one likely solution: Kiosks. Been to a grocery store lately? Checkout lines at grocery stores were one of the first victims of the last minimum wage increases. At some point, a threshold is crossed and it becomes cheaper to have customers enter in their orders/purchases onto a friendly looking computer kiosk.

A typical shift at McDonalds consists of 10 people. Of those 10, half of them are dedicated to various degrees to taking orders.  Next time you're at a McDonalds, look at it again. How many of those people do they really need? I mean, how many could be replaced by a kiosk where people would simply enter in their orders, receive a print out of what they ordered and an order ticket, and wait for their order to be fulfilled?  I'd get at least 2 of those people could be replaced by kiosks. Probably 3 eventually as people become more comfortable with ordering via kiosks.

That's a 20% reduction.  Spread across the entire industry and you're talking 2.4 million lost jobs. Now, you might say that I'm over-reacting. But mark my words, raise minimum wage and that is what you're likely going to see. A wholesale movement to kiosks in the fast food industry.  It may happen anyway -- eventually. Like ATMs. Like what is happening at grocery stores (courtesy of the last increase in minimum wage). 

Minimum wage jobs are for entry level positions. Most of those positions are very low skill. Their competitors are other low skilled people but increasingly also from machines. Businesses will automate at the point where automation costs them less than hiring low-skilled workers. It's a very simple calculation for them.


Comments (Page 1)
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on Apr 04, 2004
I have read a couple of your articles and I simply hate your point of view. I don't mean to say I hate you, I don't know you and I haven't hated more people than I have fingers (that's counting grade school). The right wing ethic stems from a simple lack of compassion. You do not care about people starving on minimum wage. You have a naive faith in the non-existent deregulated free-market. Regardless of what politicians think or what the law is, people who slave for a corporation doing something they hate deserve to make a decent living wage. Your prediction that a rise in wages will result in a diminished workforce is probably true, but that will not be because it is wrong to raise people's wages so they can stop hating their lives, but because it is wrong, abhorent, and outrageous that the holders of capital enrich themselves with the labor of slaves with no care for their well-being. If the owners and rulers of the could raise their compassion to the level of basic human decency, maybe we wouldn't have to have minimum wage laws.
on Apr 04, 2004
*laughing a bit at everett...*

Theoretically, as minimum wage workers are replaced by electronics, the price of living will at first skyrocket and then fall dramatically- because as we all know, it costs almost nothing to run a machine. Eventually, an entire fast food chain could consist of large robots with perhaps a single manager/maintenance man. The food would cost practically nothing to make, since most business costs are related to personal.

~Dan
on Apr 04, 2004
Of course minimum wage laws will cause businesses to employ less labor. The question is how much less? And how soon?

You don't really address these questions--you just assert an answer without giving empirical evidence. Of course there's a point at which humans will be replaced by machines. Is it at a minimum wage of $5.00? $6.00? $8.00? $10.00? $15.00? The answer to this is crucial when you are making guesses about the level of unemployment that a minimum wage shift would cause. I have no idea what the answer is, and, as far as I can tell, neither do you.

My own guess--and I will emphasize that it is just a guess--is that kiosks will replace humans fairly soon, no matter what government wage policy is. I would guess that a reasonable hike in the minimum wage would not greatly hasten the arrival of the "break-even" point for fast-food chains to replace humans with machines. My justification for this guess is that computer and electronics costs are falling much faster than wages could possibly rise, so I would expect those computer and electronics costs to be the primary thing determining when the break-even point occurs.

I will grant that I don't really have any evidence for this other than my intuition on the subject, but you've made the opposite assertion ("2.4 million lost jobs") with about the same evidence. I think that unless one of us is willing to make a major research project out of this (I'm not) we're going to make much progress here.
on Apr 04, 2004
Dan. This idea that everyone will be replaced by robots is idiotic. People will demand jobs or demand that they no longer need to pay to live, if all the work can be done without their participation.
on Apr 04, 2004
The problem is, and Brad doesn't really address this, though he does dance around the subject in his post, but minimum wages are, by the very way our economic system works, below the poverty line. There needs to be radical shifts in the way that accumulating profit works in our society for this to change, but the rich want to be richer, and so do the poor. If the idea of accumulation wasn't so important to us it's possible that everyone would have enough. Call me idealistic.

Cheers
on Apr 04, 2004
Various states have made significant increases to the minimum wage. When the increases are proposed the resulting scenario is always the same. Opponents argue that it will reduce the number of jobs, prices will go up, the sky will fall etc. I have done a fair bit of research on this subject and I have never come across any study or data that has shown harm to the economy after a significant minimum wage increase.
on Apr 04, 2004
Grow up Everett Lee, do you think the owners of companies will actually keep their employment level at the expense of loosing money instead of earning it? Companies are to make money, not to keep the employed comfortable and satisfied. And big companies like McDonals and Microsoft have responsibilities to their shareholders which may as well be some of those poor people. If a CEO of such company will fail to make a profit, he/she will be replaced with someone who can. Besides, not generalizing, but a fair share of them who would loose their jobs to kiosks, could actually get a better job if they commited some of their time earlier into getting better qualifications, such jobs are much tougher (if not currently impossible) to replace by machines in the near future. I know a lot of people who despite all odds did that, and a bunch of those who failed inspite having all oportinities opened for them. And one thing you're actually very wrong about, brad is unlike many entrepreneurs I've met. He actually cares a lot about his employees. The problem you have is that he states facts you do not wish to admit, but those unlike opinions are not debatable.

Now think about it that way, once McDonalds standardize on kiosks it will spread them all over the world. So this madness may actually turn into the losses of jobs all over the world.
on Apr 04, 2004
Ditto on Adam.

~Dan
on Apr 04, 2004
This raises a whole slew of questions. For instance, what is the government doing to protect kiosks and the corporations that use them from the terrorism of disgruntled employees and angry leftist protestors? Will not America see an outbreak in anti-kiosk violence? If so, who will arm the kiosks to defend themselves? Perhaps the Department of Homeland Security, already a valuable asset to the government as it prepares for a period of insurgency and civil strife, will be able to step in. A possible solution would be to install high pressure paint-spraying valves in the kiosk so that anyone who tampers with them physically or electronically will be marked with permanent dyes. If this fails, a minor explosion or burst of retaliatory gun fire from a ceiling-mounted turret would work nicely.

Of course it will cost McDonalds and Wal-Mart quite a bit to install armed and armored kiosks. How will they maintain such low prices if they have to spend $6000 a year per kiosk to maintain and protect them while paying the cost of upgrade for the newest version of Microsoft Kiosk and the Microsoft Kiosk antivirus suite? It could be crippling to the economy and send us towards another recession! A possible solution would be tax cuts and subsidies for companies that are willing to install top notch spyware from vendors with offices in Washington. That way companies would be fully protected when they install kiosks. It would be a shame if Wal-Mart customers had to take the burden of pricy kiosks. Why not let taxpayers do it?

But I digress. Of course the minimum wage laws should be revoked to allow companies the option of cheap labor to service, polish, distribute, and masturbate their kiosks. Anyone who does not think so doesn't grasp the important role kiosks will soon play in the economy, and the devestating effect it would have on our economy and the pocketbook of the consumer if companies had to pay more than $2.50 an hour to hire people to maintain machines that will work for free.

on Apr 04, 2004
So it's not compassionate to pay little for an entry-level job that requires no experience, but it's compassionate to lay off these people (even just one person) so that they never receive any experience and can never move up to social ladder?

If the owners and rulers of the could raise their compassion to the level of basic human decency, maybe we wouldn't have to have minimum wage laws.


Notice how these so-called compassionate people never own their own businesses. What's up with that? Is compassion and entrepeneurship mutually exclusive?
on Apr 04, 2004

Dan. This idea that everyone will be replaced by robots is idiotic.

Everett, get out much? Low wage jobs get replaced by automation. ATMs have eliminated thousands of teller jobs. Grocery stores already have self-check out lines.

The problem with those who advocate higher minimum wages is that they really don't seem to be that concerned about whether it actually solves a problem.They just want to be, like Everett, showing their compassion. Never mind if raising minimum wage will toss people out of jobs and turn them into dependents.

Those who want to raise minimum wage don't even fully buy into their own "logic". If raising it to $8 is a good idea, why not $80?

But bottom line - when in some years you're entering in your Big Mac order at a kiosk rather than giving it to a person, think back to this article and wonder what happened to the person who once had that job.

on Apr 04, 2004
BTW, while I fully admit to not having time to put together statistics on this issue (Because such statistics con't prove anything because it's too complex an issue), I can at least say that my position is based on quite a bit of common sense and not emotional infantilism such as what a few in this thread have exhibited.
on Apr 04, 2004
"I can at least say that my position is based on quite a bit of common sense and not emotional infantilism such as what a few in this thread have exhibited."

What a truly constructive statement that was.

~Dan
on Apr 04, 2004
How much is enough for people anyway? From what I understand, Wal-Mart doesn't pay their workers enough, and I'm sure that they don't pay all their workers minimum wage. I've never worked at Wal-Mart nor do I know anybody who works there, but surely if we really want people to have wages that're above poverty, the minimum wage should be something above what Wal-Mart pays its own employees.
on Apr 04, 2004
Thomas Huxley, Aldous's biologist father, has a quip apropos this discussion. "The greatest tragedy in science? The slaying of a grand theory by ugly facts!" From the perspective of the originator of this thread, the "Living Wage" campaigns, of which there have been scores in this country alone, the 'ugly facts' in question are that dramatic increases in minimum wage, instead of causing a net job loss, or an increase in unemployment, have had a slight effect in the opposite direction, slight job gains and small drops in unemployment.

People might ask themselves a simple question. What will poor people do if they have a little more money? DUHHHH! 'Spend it and create jobs' is one theory, and, thankfully since I like the idea of higher minimum wages, one more in alignment with facts instead of some anti-human Republican agenda that would have most folks groveling for a pittance, or perhaps re-enslaved one way or another. Let's try a minimum wage of $12.50/hour, just as an experiment. If all the corporations pick up their toys and split, I know plenty of people who still will be RWA to bust their butts and make the world safe for democracy.
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