Brad Wardell's views about technology, politics, religion, world affairs, and all sorts of politically incorrect topics.
The thugocracies can no longer be tolerated
Published on June 21, 2004 By Draginol In Current Events

There's an old Star Trek episode in which Kirk and crew beam down to a planet that had been influenced by organized crime in Chicago. A whole planet run by organized crime.  It made for a kind of silly episode since the concept was so absurd.

And yet much of the population in the middle east lives in an environment in which organized crime runs their daily lives.  This outstanding article (posted at USS Clueless) gives a detailed look at the situation in that region.

For all the idiotic claims that US action was driven by the OOOOIILLL, it is easy to forget that the combined GNP of all the middle east, with all their oil wealth is less than half that of California alone. Needless to say, no one ever accused anti-war protesters of being particularly bright. Not too many business majors in the anti-war crowd I suspect.

The middle east is just such a mess. And they have no one to blame but themselves. An apathetic population has allowed gangsterism to take over.  For all the talk about Islam as a religion of peace, you don't see too many heads being chopped off elsewhere.  The American left and intelligentsia in Europe are always ready to excuse the monstrous behavior on public display in the middle east. It's almost a politically correct form of racism. As if the Islamic world are childlike in their understanding of adult civilized behavior and hence can be excused.  You can imagine the world reaction would be if Americans started arbitrarily rounding up Muslims and chopped off their heads. Heck, imagine the damage even a hundred fanatical Americans, well armed and trained could do throughout the Muslim world.  Luckily for them, Americans do behave in an adult civilized way.

Those who oppose US actions in the middle east haven't come forward with any constructive alternatives to current US actions. At best, we get impotent whining about Israel -- as if a country of a dozen million can be blamed for the vile behavior occurring in countries with a combined population of around 400 million.

Something has to be done. The corruption of the thugocracies in the middle east is affecting the rest of the world now as 9/11 made painfully clear.  I can't say I'm terribly happy with how the US occupation in Iraq has gone but I certainly can't think of any realistic alternatives than aggressive military action in the middle east to reshape it so that order and the rule of law can be firmly established in that part of the world and the hateful extremists can be weeded out.

We tried doing nothing for 8 years and that didn't work out too well. I fear that things are going to get a lot bloodier all around before things get better.


Comments (Page 1)
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on Jun 21, 2004
Seize their oil fields and live 'em alone to their Allah or whatever...
on Jun 21, 2004
as if a country of a dozen million can be blamed for the vile behavior occurring in countries with a combined population of around 400 million.


Ok, I am going to commit the cardinal sin, and suggest a hypothetical...

250 Million Americans have a land mass roughly the size of New Jersey given to a race of people they have been warring with for the last how many years... and they sit there happily with smiles on their faces welcoming their new neighbors...

And I am the magical man from happy land, in gumdrop lane, with my magical gumdrop hat, making people happy!!!

No one blames Isreal for the problems in the middle east... It is the problem in the middle east.

BAM!!!
on Jun 21, 2004
I don't understand that either. I understand why people expect more from America than they do from Hussein, but to condone the atrocities that the Middle East commits simply because they have neighbors they hate is nonsensical at bbest, anti-Semitic at worst.

When you think about it, if America had an "Israel", we could use that to justify all the atrocities we commit and people would actually accept it, sympathize with us, and demonize our Israel.

Yes, we tried being civil with these countries, and that failed miserable. I say it's time for more tough love. What will happen? They'll hate us?
on Jun 21, 2004
Yes, we tried being civil with these countries, and that failed miserable. I say it's time for more tough love. What will happen? They'll hate us?


If you can live with a constant red terror alert... go for your life... The US can do whatever it wants in the region, it will anyway...

just dont look innocently around the world for help and advice when you present the attitude on display here... the USA is powerful enough to make it's own bed, it can certainly lie in it as well... I suppose the problem is that any bed the USA makes will be big enough that the whole world has to lie in it... thats the penultimate problem - the USA is not obliged to care about the rest of the world when considering it's actions, but it is the price you pay for being the Worlds only super power...

BAM!!!
on Jun 21, 2004

If New Jersey were given to someone else, the rest of the United States would NOT collapse and descend into barbarity.

If someone gave Tazmania back to say China, would all of Australia descend into murderous barbarism of head cutting off, brutal dictators abusing their own people, terrorism, etc.

Muggaz, could you at least TRY to educate yourself on this issue? I provide a link to an article that is pretty thorough on the matter. Yes, it's long but at least you would have a better understanding on the region.

(edited to fix a very bad typo, the US would not start sawing off the heads of people if one US state were given over to someone else. It's absurd to blame the vile behvaior of the middle east on a country the size of a county).

on Jun 21, 2004
Ok Brad, disregard everything I say as simpleton talk... because as you have pointed out several times, I am an idiot...

It's actually Tasmania FYI....

What's so hard to understand about the issue? we just have different understandings... this has nothing to do with anti-semetism... It's about a whole people having their sovereign state taken away from them and given to a people that they have been opposed to for thousands and thousands of years... no referendum, no vote... just 'these guys were here 40000 years ago, lets give it to them... never mind who is here now..."

Why was Israel created? because of guilt... I know it's hard for someone like yourself to beleive the simplicity of this rather complex issue, but really, thats the crux of the matter... to paraphrase you, Isreal is most certainly not the 'Red Herring' you claim it to be... continue to display such an attitude at your own peril.

Please forgive my insolence... but the Falkland war had nothing to do with Isreal either... neither does a lot of other crap... but as far as I am concerned... eliminate the problem of Israel, or at least entertain a compromise worthy of both parties... and Middle East tension will alleviate somewhat...

If New Jersey were given to someone else, the rest of the United States would collapse and descend into barbarity


Let's organise it and find out... We will see if the rest of the world should intervene, because obviously your culture is so wrong, and everyone else has the answers...

If those that live in the middle east want to be barbaric, I say let them... I live in Australia, not my problem... When i start providing this rogue New Jersey with weapons and political clout... then it becomes my problem.

BAM!!!
on Jun 22, 2004
"this has nothing to do with anti-semetism... It's about a whole people having their sovereign state taken away from them and given to a people that they have been opposed to for thousands and thousands of years... "


Muggaz, you realize that the statement defeats itself, right? Why have they been opposed to them for thousands of years? I have a copy of the Qu'ran on my desk, I've had it since college. Maybe you should take a look at it sometime, and maybe look into the hateful, anti-semitic tirades spouted from mosques all around the world...

Do you think that people blow themselves up on buses because of a real estate dispute, however "unjust" it might be? Nations in the Middle East have forcibly changed hands continually for thousands of years, neighbors watching idly from the sidelines. They barely have the concept of "nation" there. The only reason they hate it this time is because it is a Jewish state.

Come on, this is a solidly racist, religious issue, and not because I say so, but because THEY say so. I appreciate your opinion, but they have plenty of airtime and they are solidly on record.

*

As for the New Jersey thing, it is silly. People have their homes and property taken away all the time. I know of whole communities that are underwater in the US now, the residents dragged from their homes and paid a pittance. No one that I am aware of beheaded hostages. This is about a barbaric culture that refuses to be updated. It will be, one way or the other.


P.S. You might also look into the historical status of Palestinians as a "people". Are they Turkish then? British? Which flavor of occupation do they identify most with, considering they have been continually occupied since before Islam was a religion at all. I would love to know just exactly how you define the "Palestinian" people historically.
on Jun 22, 2004

just dont look innocently around the world for help and advice when you present the attitude on display here... the USA is powerful enough to make it's own bed, it can certainly lie in it as well... I suppose the problem is that any bed the USA makes will be big enough that the whole world has to lie in it... thats the penultimate problem - the USA is not obliged to care about the rest of the world when considering it's actions, but it is the price you pay for being the Worlds only super power...


When did the terror attacks start happening? They started happening long before Bush was in office, so we're going to face constant red terror no matter what we do. Sure, maybe if we destroyed Israel, we'd gain some support from the terrorists, but Israelis are people too, and unlike the other people, they aren't terrorizing the US. Usually, people support those who don't alienate them and threaten to destroy their entire nations. Maybe I'm wrong, but terrorists won't make any friends when they're threatening to kill innocent people until they get their way, just like I won't get a girl to like me over this other guy who's admittedly a jerk if I threaten to kill her entire family if she doesn't do what I say. Whatever happened to diplomacy? 


I'm also wondering... If we were to take Israel away from Israelis, would these same people who treat Israel as the real problem support the exiled Israelis in their terrorism across the globe as they fight for the land in which some of them have lived their entire lives? They should, since they'll do it for Muslims. If not, it seems like anti-Semitism to me.

on Jun 22, 2004
If Islam truely is anti-semetic... I say kill all the towel heads... feel free to put that on record.

Great idea everyone, lets put Israel right in the middle of a bunch of places that will hate their guts just because they are Jewish...

Just because anti-semetic tirades are sprouted from *some* Mosques, doesn't mean that Islam is anti-semetic...

What, exactly, is their attachment to this particular piece of property, sentimental value? Could it be the fact that they have a religious attachment to it?


Did you read the article that Brad linked? Moslems and Jews both have Historical claims on Jerusalem... however, the terrorists dont even care about Religion... it's about power and hate... they suffer from the same affliction as any mortal male... greed. Its about a select few with all the influence controliing the masses through fear and diatribes... the only difference is the Civilised west, and the Barbaric Middle East...

BAM!!!

on Jun 22, 2004
The middle east is just such a mess. And they have no one to blame but themselves. An apathetic population has allowed gangsterism to take over.


While that is technically true, it's hard to stand up to bullies - otherwise, inner-city and criminal gangs wouldn't flourish in many parts of the U.S. and elsewhere in the western world. When your life is being threatened, or the lives of loved ones, either explicitly or implicitly, sometimes all your fancy ideas of standing up for yourself, just go out the window, all the while thinking - "please don't hurt my kids".

It's a lot harder to uphold some lofty principle when it's your family on the firing line.

but I certainly can't think of any realistic alternatives than aggressive military action in the middle east to reshape it so that order and the rule of law can be firmly established in that part of the world and the hateful extremists can be weeded out. We tried doing nothing for 8 years and that didn't work out too well. I fear that things are going to get a lot bloodier all around before things get better.


While I agree with a lot of what you say Brad, I honestly don't think that hateful extremists will be "weeded out" like that - military action (if that is the only thing on-going). Unless total annihilation is being considered, I don't think it be that easy to stop the hate with, what amounts to, more hate. I think that engaging those whom you can't understand in discussion is typically required for any effective, long-term solution.

In the interim, effective policing is needed - where the police force is trusted by most of the populace. Unfortunately, a few foolish U.S. soldiers running the prisons over there have caused untold and disproportionate damage to the U.S. cause. One can only hope that the situation is stabilized, so that longer term efforts can bear more fruit.
on Jun 22, 2004
Hateful extremists won't be weeded out. Civility will be learned over time by watching the futility of this hate. After a while you decide you'd rather not have your house bulldozed anymore. Terrorists have had little in the way of negative reinforcement until now, on the contrary, they have been the heroes of the Middle East.

Now, though, they are bringing a great deal of pain to their neighbors. Now the neighbors are starting to question why Palestinians feel the need to kill other Palestinians, or to kill Israelis when they know the reprisals and suffering the attacks will cause for the very people the liars claim to represent. You think Iraqis appreciate foreigners killing Iraqis? No, and it will take its toll on the "cause" eventually.

As an aside, does anyone here think that if Israel hadn't been created by the UN, that there would be a Palestinian state now? Do you think that there would be some utopian democracy where the "people" decide what happens to their land? Show me one other such state in the Arab world. There aren't any.

If Israel hadn't been created the "Palestinians" would have either faced another occupation from a western nation or passed from neighboring state to neighboring state. Please, someone with heartfelt concern for Palestinian sovereignty, please tell me when they have ever been "sovereign".

What they are asking now is for Israel to be handed to them as it was to Jews 50+ years ago. It would be like us handing California back to the Native Americans and saying "my bad". Have they ever "ruled" it, ever? Why should we give it to them now when it has never historically been theirs?

Palestinian lands have been forcibly occupied far, far longer than America. Squatter's rights are cool and all, but when they have no ability to hold their land, and it passes like a badminton birdie from fascist state to fascist state, I dunno how this could be much worse.
on Jun 22, 2004
How do we go about creating the attitude within the Middle East that terrorism is bad though?

You dont go about it by invading and dropping bombs...fortunately for us, we are givin the oppurtunity to learn on our own accord from an early age... Kids in the Middle East are taught to hate the USA... how do we stop that? the USA becoming more agressive?

It would be like us handing California back to the Native Americans and saying "my bad"


I agree... Its too far gone now... but there has to be a compromise, and standing from the outside looking in, the Palestinians have it far worse than the Israelites...

Sorry for the massive thread Hijack Brad... this article is about all the problems in the middle east.... and how Israel has nothing to do with those problems.... maybe I should eat my words...

BAM!!!
on Jun 22, 2004
Hmmmm, you are obviously an American who likes Bush. The claim that US foriegn policy (which you so naively call 'US Action') is not driven by 'OOOIIIIILLLL' is so patently so absurd I can't believ you still think otherwise.

Bush has made the world a far more dangerous place all in the interest of lining his pockets (oh and those of his dads and his friends) with money.

Just look at what Rumsfeld (spelling?) said the day after 9/11. Just look at who got the contracts in Afganhistan and Iraq. OPEN YOUR EYES.
on Jun 22, 2004
" How do we go about creating the attitude within the Middle East that terrorism is bad though? You don't go about it by invading and dropping bombs..."


There are two kinds of reinforcement: positive and negative. For the last 50 years terrorists have gotten pretty much nothing but positive reinforcement from their peers. Now that the average Middle Eastern citizen is threatened with world war, they have to look at it quantitatively. What have they accomplished with this terror in 50 years? What do they stand to lose if they continue to provoke the hate of the West?

The illusion that we are weak and can be intimidated, or that killing enough of us will make us concede political points is pretty much shot now. We have more bombs, and the more we are antagonized, the more apt we are to use them. They can kill a few thousand, we can wipe them from the face of the earth. The nastier they get, the more apt the average American is to stomach more monstrous reprisals. My blog tonight was about that.

After you concede that terrorism isn't gonna further their aims, all they have left is cause and effect, and the effects are felt by everyone now, not just the terrorists. Put simply, these totalitarian regimes and terrorist attitudes are keeping the Middle East in the dark ages, when they are intelligent, resourceful people with the potential to innovate and compete in every way with the rest of the world.

Japan is a golden example of this, I think. You don't have to lose your culture to come to a reasonable understanding with the rest of the world. On the contrary, you can make your culture all the more attractive *TO* the rest of the world by not making it seem such a threat to them. WW2 was not positive reinforcement for the Japanese people, but the lesson derived from their defeat made them understand that there are other ways to achieve power and influence besides backwards, medieval aggression.

Discarding hateful tactics didn't cause the Japanese to lose their identity, on the contrary, they have created Japanophiles all over the world. Arab nations could do the same if they simply would step away from the barbarism that the rest of the world finds so horrific. The baby will be out with the bath water until they do.
on Jun 22, 2004
Insightful - as always Baker Street....

I was kind of hoping we wouldn't have to Nuke the Arabs though... I guess only time will tell, and it's hard to take a proactive stance on the matter especially when the people hate the US so much...

The knee jerk reactions are what causes ongoing problems.... but it's also twice as hard because it isn't a level playing field... Terrorist's dont comply with any conventions...

The example of Japan is brilliant, however, it's not quite the same situation... here is to hoping...

BAM!!!
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