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Emissions should be tied to GDP
Published on December 9, 2003 By Draginol In Politics

The chart below is a chart of CO2 emissions vs. Gross Domestic Product (GDP). Many in Europe falsely accuse George W. Bush of "killing" the Kyoto accords. In actuality, the Kyoto accords died in the United States in 1998.  They don't have a chance to pass in the United States no matter who is President because the Kyoto accords are, basically, a joke.

Now, if you're not familiar with the Kyoto accords (most Americans who argue for it probably have never looked at it) let me give you a primer: The accords are designed so that countries will reduce the amount of green house gas to be 5% less than they were in 1990 (which I've highlighted).

Data Source: IEA CO2 Emissions from Fossil Fuel Combustion
Data Provider: International Energy Agency
 

The first issue Americans have is the arbitrary choice of year -- 1990.  In 1990, the United States was in the midst of an economic boom while many nations in Europe (notably France) were suffering a relative economic slowdown.  Why 1990?

The second problem has to do with reporting. How accurate are reportings on CO2 emissions? I suspect they are very accurate in most western European nations, Japan, and the United States.  But look at the countries that they have. How do they measure Angola?

The third problem has to do with the one size fits all solution. It's a helluva lot easier for say France to lower its emissions. Just tighter controls on its remaining factories.  The United States, however, is a relatively sparsely populated nation spanning a continent. Much of the CO2 emissions in the United States are from cars. How exactly is the US supposed to solve that? Smaller cars? Small cars are nice in urban environments. But most of the driving takes place outside the cities in the suburbs and changing that reality isn't doable or practical or even necessarily desirable. And people driving significant distances to work are not likely to tolerate doing it in tiny cars to satisfy some European politicans who have decided that CO2 emissions are going to cause global warming (when I was a kid, it was global cooling that was all the rage).

The fourth problem is related to the third, different industries have different requirements and difficulties to reduce CO2 emissions.  The American power production grid is largely coal based. France's, being controlled by the government, is largely nuclear. I would love to see the US move to nuclear power for power generation but the same people who want Kyoto are usually the same people protesting against nuclear power plants.  And France is transitioned to being a post-industrial nation. Do they still have factories in Paris?

The biggest problem, however, has to do with economics. If times are good, emissions go up. Many Americans see the Kyoto accords as a cynical attempt to try to slow down the US economy.

What Bush and many Americans have supported is the idea of trying to tie emissions to GDP.  That is, become more efficient at power generation.

Interpreting the table

There's a lot of countries on that table so let's get to the bottom line here.

The United States went from 1191 (1972) to 650 (1999).  So the United States has greatly improved its efficiency in power.  Instead of tarring and feathering the United States, people should be pleased that the US (and the world in general) has gotten so much better at using energy more efficiently.

Other countries who are roughly the same as the United States (or worse) include Canada, Romania, Australia, China, Cuba, Poland, (heck pretty much all of eastern Europe).

The former Soviet Union is at 1530.5.  Think about that. That's worse than the United States was in 1972. Anyone who's visited Moscow can tell you the air conditions there.

The worst country, btw, was Iraq at 2816. You'd think that the Euroleft would be glad to see the US take out the world's worst polluter per GDP.

But really, the numbers show another trend - countries that produce energy have high emissions. Hence, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, etc. have high emissions. And it's not commonly known but do you know which country produces the most energy each year? It's not Saudi Arabia. It's the United States. It's just that we consume so much that we still have to import. But think about that, despite producing more energy each year than any of the countries in the middle east we still have a remarkably low emissions per GDP.

If you have any doubt about the correlation between energy production (oil refining) and emissions, Egypt, which is quite close to Saudi Arabia, has an emissions ratio of 529. That's less than one fifth that of most of the oil producing states in the middle east.

And btw, Germany, the Netherlands, Belgium, Finland, and others who produce virtually no energy are not significantly better than the United States. The USA is around 650, Germany is at 444. That's 200 units difference. When you take into account that they are relatively small countries that don't have the massive automobile use of the US and Canada and don't refine their own fuel, they are actually remarkably inefficient. They should actually be much lower than that considering their relatively ideal conditions. And don't forget the emissions in the United States from having to transport goods across the continent (such as the food many Europeans eat).

BTW, Ethiopia is at only 75.9. Are they who we should be striving to emulate?

To all but the most hard headed, it should be clear why the Kyoto accords were always unworkable. It was a simplistic solution to a complex problem. And besides, that, it's really hard to take France and Belgium and other Europeans terribly seriously about environmental issues when they are just now phasing out leaded gasoline (want to talk really nasty stuff).

The US senate, in 1998, did the right thing by voting a resolution (unanimously) making it clear that these flawed, simplistic protocols would never be welcome here. On top of all this, there's the basic issue that odds are, Kyoto is meaningless when it comes to the environment. CO2 emissions going back to 1990 levels may (and in my opinion would) do nothing to affect the weather either way. The in the 70s climate models showed global cooling. Now we hear about global warming. In reality, we don't know and we also don't really know whether we produce enough CO2 to make that kind of effect. But that's a different discussion enitrely.

When Kyoto's advocates are ready for taking a stab at serious environment resolutions the US will be waiting. But having Europeans trying to take the high ground on environmental issues is like having a vegetarian chain smoker trying to take the high ground on health issues over a non-smoker who happens to eat red meat.


Comments (Page 2)
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on Dec 11, 2003
Abe: No, you haven't shown that other alternatives can reduce emissions. You simply made up a bunch of numbers. I could say that switching to candy canes for fuel could reduce power use by 50% but that doesn't make it true.

In addition, you said in your previous post: "Second, solar alone could make up 15%." Which is utter BS. Facts aren't something we simply agree to. Facts exist as part of objective reality.

Let me say it very simply: OTHER THAN NUCLEAR POWER THERE IS NO CURRENT ENERGY SOURCE THAT WILL MAKE A SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCE IN GLOBAL EMISSIONS FOR POWER GENERATION.

Jepel: Clearly you don't live in the United States. Compared to Europe, the US is a pollution free zone. And I say that in terms of air quality and amount of refuse one finds in cities.

Visit New York (or even "smoggy" LA) then go to Berlin, Moscow, or Beijing and tell me who lives in "rubbish".

The Kyoto accords failed for many reasons. One reason was intolerance on the part of Europeans to accept that not all nations are alike.

1) Energy producing nations produce more CO2 as part of the refining process. And it is hard (and expensive) to make that produce less CO2.

2) Continental powers like Australia, Canada, and USA have to use cars for transportation which produce a lot of CO2 and the only realistic way to reduce that is to find an alternative to fossil fuels.

3) The European case for the Kyoto accords is astoundingly weak. The entire thing is premised that CO2 emissions are very bad. It is followed up by an even weaker case that human production of CO2 is going to change global weather. And then on top of all that it is assumed that any global weather change is bad.

Anyone who has done any significant travel internationally (USA, Europe, China, Japan, etc.) can tell you that the United States is pretty efficient with its power use. The air quality is good. The water quality is good.

Kyoto strikes me as a cynical attempt for Europeans to slow down the US economy. They could have taken a GDP approach with milestones such as trying to have countries make it to 600 per GDP by 2005. 500 by 2010. 400 by 2015, 300 to 2015 and so on.
on Dec 11, 2003
Draginol --> "Let me say it very simply: OTHER THAN NUCLEAR POWER THERE IS NO CURRENT ENERGY SOURCE THAT WILL MAKE A SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCE IN GLOBAL EMISSIONS FOR POWER GENERATION."

Wrong. And while you are demanding proof from others that also say 'no' to your claim, even while it's in caps, I demad that you do the same to back up your statements.

The combination of wind, solar, hydro, and other forms of more eco-friendly fuel sources with the conscious reduction of CO2 releases into the environment will make a significant difference in global environmental health.

I am in agreement with most here in that if nuclear power is the only way to go, I can't do much to stand against it. Because of its volatile history however, I'd prefer to try alternative sources. It baffles me that you can make a statement like the one I quoted when you have the internet and library at your fingertips to discover the vast possiblities of using wind, water, and the sun for energy.

Draginol --> "But I can tell you right now there is no feasible way for solar energy to reduce emissions by a significant amount." & "Solar costs a lot of energy to produce the panels, only work in some areas, and are incredibly inefficient. And wind power is a total bust."

Ok, again show me why you think there is no feasible way for solar energy to reduce emissions significantly. Solar costs more energy to produce the panels? I highly doubt that, please prove me wrong. No, don't just give me some numbers, show me how solar panels cost more than the energy they can glean and transfer to use in their lifetime. I think that you pulled a statement from some dark place when you said that. Solar panels can work in most places, even on cloudy days, and that's a fact I didn't pull out of my bum. Wind power is a total bust? Where did you get THAT idea? Honestly, I'd really like to know why you are making these statements.

If there is truth to them, please prove me wrong.
on Dec 11, 2003
Draginol, you talk a lot about facts. So where are yours? Where are your facts that say we can't get 15% of our energy from solar? Where are your facts that show "wind power is a total bust"?

Here are some solar "facts".

1. Passive solar designs can reduce heating bills as much as 50 percent.
2. An average home has more than enough roof area to produce enough solar electricrity to supply all of its power needs.
3. Solar water heating typically reduces the energy needed to heat your water by 40-80%.

If most homes and businesses adopted the above it would reduce our need for fossil fuel based energy tremendously.
on Dec 12, 2003
Draginol,

I think you making confusion between CO2 emission and air pollution in big city (smog). Both can be considered as air pollution, and are partly connected, notably due to car engine combustion. However breathing good quality air in some part of USA doesn't mean that USA isn't polluting.

I would like to answer your point; the Kyoto treaty was reckoning difference between country. The concept of emission trading that would allow big producer to buy licence to emit CO2 from country with lower CO2 production than required, was supposed to allow some flexibility. You have also to note that 3 countries (Norway, Australia and Iceland) were given different treatments.

http://www.cnn.com/TECH/science/9811/11/climate.summit/index.html

Big CO2 producer countries would have to pay to pollute and I feel that can be part of the answer. Especially if you remember that American senate, heavily lobbied by industry, was quiet against paying anything.
I’m not sure about the principle that green regulations will necessarily bad for economy. After all, you would have to create new solutions, and it would make sense that some company will make money out of that.
Another thing, the classic argumentation saying that Europe is doing bad thing so America can do bad things isn’t really a constructive one and sounds a little bit childish. You just have to admit that both side are wrong.

I totally agree on the fact that the correlation between global warming and greenhouse emissions hasn’t been proved. As we talking about extremely complex systems, which are considered as chaotic, you cannot establish, by definition, any strong causality links. Anyway, it’s seems that elevation of the global temperature is coinciding with the industrial era.

http://yosemite.epa.gov/oar/globalwarming.nsf/content/climateuncertainties.html

Is global warming necessarily a bad thing?
It depends in which part of the globe you are, but as climate is going to reach a different state, you have to be prepared to an increase of violent events such as storm, tornado, etc…
Differently, some part of the world might actually become colder. The reason would be the end of hot/cold sea flow such as golf stream. These things are really sensitive about relative temperature and would very likely to be modified. It has already happened in the past as climate has always been fluctuating.

You are right to point that being efficient about CO2 production is already a good aim. It’s just not enough if you want to achieve low impact on the earth.

on Dec 12, 2003
The car comment is clearly wrong.

There is no reason that North Americans need SUVs or Minivans.

on Dec 12, 2003
Just a few comments:

1. I didn't think Kyoto treated all countries the same. I was under the impression that "developing countries" (I believe India is considered a "developing country") were exempt, but I could be wrong.

2. Moving to fuel cells in cars won't solve anything because fuel cells aren't an energy source. They run on hydrogen, yes, but the process of isolating the hydrogen takes energy, and right now that usually comes from a "dirty" fossil fuel.

The only way to get around that is to use a renewable energy source like solar power to separate hydrogen, but then you run into the problems of solar power and economies of scale. In order to do this on the scale where it would create a beneficial emissions reduction, you would need literally hundreds of square kilometers of solar collectors.

Steven Den Beste has a great discussion on this very subject here:

http://denbeste.nu/cd_log_entries/2002/07/Carbonemissions.shtml

3. Fuel Cells have problems of their own. Even if we manage to solve the isolation problem described in point 2, we have to find a way to drastically reduce the cost and efficiency of fuel cells. Recent research indicates that the damage produced by leaking hydrogen would be significant (but CO2 emissions would be down!)


IMHO we should conscientiously work towards finding solutions for clean renewable energy sources, but do so on a realistic timetable. In the mean time, let us continue to refine our current processes. Hybrid electric vehicles that get 40-70 mpg should be our future. Many companies are even working on Hybrid SUV's. They cost a little more, but have significantly lower gasoline needs (and thus you save money there). And you wouldn't need to deal with creating an entirely new distribution infrastructure, as you would with hydrogen.

I need to run, but I just wanted to say a fwe things:)
on Dec 12, 2003
"There is no reason that North Americans need SUVs or Minivans."

OK, one more thing, you might be able to get away with that statement for a significant portion of SUVs, but Minivans? What is wrong with them, other than that they are large and pseudo-ugly?

No one in their right mind buys a minivan unless they need one. They're roomy, safe and much more fuel efficient than SUVs - more efficient even than a lot of regular cars, and larger families (with, say, 4 or more kids) absolutely need to have something that size to cart their family around.
on Dec 13, 2003

I think you making confusion between CO2 emission and air pollution in big city (smog). Both can be considered as air pollution, and are partly connected, notably due to car engine combustion. However breathing good quality air in some part of USA doesn't mean that USA isn't polluting.

No, I'm not confused. Other people have been trying to argue that the US would live in its own "refuse" (see earlier responses). I pointed out that air pollution wise, US air is fine. CO2 is not pollution. It is a greenhouse gas.

1. I didn't think Kyoto treated all countries the same. I was under the impression that "developing countries" (I believe India is considered a "developing country") were exempt, but I could be wrong.

I didn't mean to imply that it treated all countries the same in that sense. I meant that the treaty didn't do anything to look at what causes CO2 emissions. But you touch on one of the gripes Americans have with Kyoto. China, India, Pakistan all get treated as developing countries. That's BS. If you are developed enough to build nuclear weapons then you're deeloped enough to be treated the same as say Japan which doesn't even have nuclear weapons.

2. Moving to fuel cells in cars won't solve anything because fuel cells aren't an energy source. They run on hydrogen, yes, but the process of isolating the hydrogen takes energy, and right now that usually comes from a "dirty" fossil fuel.

You'll note that I always put fuel cells WITH nuclear energy. You have to do both. Because as Steven correctly points out, fuel cells aren't an energy source. You would need nuclear energy to provide that energy they need. And the same people who tend to promote Kyoto are anti-nuclear energy.

Big CO2 producer countries would have to pay to pollute and I feel that can be part of the answer. Especially if you remember that American senate, heavily lobbied by industry, was quiet against paying anything.
I’m not sure about the principle that green regulations will necessarily bad for economy. After all, you would have to create new solutions, and it would make sense that some company will make money out of that.
Another thing, the classic argumentation saying that Europe is doing bad thing so America can do bad things isn’t really a constructive one and sounds a little bit childish. You just have to admit that both side are wrong.

How is it "childish" to point out the obvious fact that Europe is demanding the United States to live up to standards that it doesn't even maintain.

Also, the big issue that Kyoto ignores: WHY SHOULD THE UNITED STATES SIGN IT? What exactly is the case for Kyoto? To make France happy?

As you pointed out: CO2 is not a pollutant. Not in the dirty air sense.  Heck, water vapor is as much a "pollutant" as CO2 if you want to come right down to it.  The argument that the US could just pay other countries for its excess CO2 use is absurd and arbitrary. When will the French start paying us for their lead in the air? When China start paying its neighbors for the massive sulfur pollution?

If some of you could just get away from your anti-Americanism you would realize how absurd Kyoto is. If the US signed it, it would have to make damaging changes to its economy or face PAYING other countries. Oh and to top it all off, economic competitors like China? They're off the hook.. And this is good....how?

 

 

on Dec 14, 2003
For being honnest, I didn't found that Kyoto was perfect at all. But it would have been a first step toward a multilateral solution. Probably that now it's going to be even more difficult to reach an agreement for pollution problems. As you mention accuratly, Europ is a polluted place, but the actual policy trend is to try to reduce that. With different level of support and different success. But that the direction.
Anyway, I don't see that as antiamerican to say that US is the biggest CO2 emiter on earth by amount and one of the worse per head (if you except petrol producer country). It's just true. You mention frequently, making any comparison between France and US is a little unrelevant, there are not even the same kind of political unit. You could compare France and california or any other of state. The federal gouvernement can only be compare to EU, and even it's extremely different. I know that France bashing is still popular, but I'm sure you could easily find better argumentation.
on Dec 14, 2003

In what way was Kyoto a step forward? A step forward in what?

BTW, the US is the world's largest petro producer too. That is why you come across as Anti-American. You and other Europeans are so ready to cut slack to other countries.

If you took out the massive amount of oil production and refining that goes on in the United States I suspect you would find that the US is as CO2 friendly as say France.

And France is only low because of their reliance on Nuclear power.

If the Kyoto people were serious, they would have a treaty to try to get countries to convert to say nuclear power.

on Dec 15, 2003
I think that Kyoto with all its flaws was an attempt to control CO2 emission which is something that all countries should take in account as the price is going to be paid collectively... I don't think that's very wise to submit social or environmental policy to the sake of the economy only. You right about nuclear power, France depends on 70 % and provide eletricity to almost all its neighbours. The whole CO2 highlight that other way to produce electricity must also implemanted. For example, in the UK they plan to relie more and more on alternative source. Of course, you can't just use that, but you can increase the proportion generated through wind,etc ... This is working because there are some political willing to do so. And that was one point of Kyoto. Balance the economic aspect with environment worries. Anyway, I suspect you're not gonna change you mind about that...
on Dec 15, 2003

Draginol,  


You seem to be fairly quick to fall back on an anti-American complaint. No-one made any such suggestion. Please continue to argue the point and stop seeing racism where none exists. Just because people disagree with you on this topic does not make them anti-American. It's the American stance they disagree with NOT the American people.


You have clearly stated that you don't believe in global warming and you don't believe that an increase in CO2 emissions in wrong. Lets take it to extremes. What if every country increased CO2 emissions and eventually CO2 raise to 15% of the atmosphere. In case you're unaware this would kill most animal life on the planet including us. Is this wrong?


If so then you admit there is a limit. Now how do you divide the limit. America can create 14% of the CO2 and the rest of the world 1%? American can create 13% and the rest of the world 12%. How about all rich western indivuals with lots of industry can pollute 100 times as much? How about every individual be allowed an equal level of CO2 pollution. You know "All men are created equal...". I'm sure you're heard of it. But maybe Lincoln didn't mean it to apply to Chinese people?


Paul.

on Dec 15, 2003

I think that Kyoto with all its flaws was an attempt to control CO2 emission which is something that all countries should take in account as the price is going to be paid collectively... I don't think that's very wise to submit social or environmental policy to the sake of the economy only. You right about nuclear power, France depends on 70 % and provide eletricity to almost all its neighbours. The whole CO2 highlight that other way to produce electricity must also implemanted. For example, in the UK they plan to relie more and more on alternative source. Of course, you can't just use that, but you can increase the proportion generated through wind,etc ... This is working because there are some political willing to do so. And that was one point of Kyoto. Balance the economic aspect with environment worries. Anyway, I suspect you're not gonna change you mind about that...

But you make the assumption that reducing CO2 is worth some level of sacrifice. That case has not been made.  Just 20 years ago we were talking about global cooling remember? Now it's global warming. 

You have clearly stated that you don't believe in global warming and you don't believe that an increase in CO2 emissions in wrong. Lets take it to extremes. What if every country increased CO2 emissions and eventually CO2 raise to 15% of the atmosphere. In case you're unaware this would kill most animal life on the planet including us. Is this wrong?

This is a nonsensical argument. How precisely would humans manage to get that much CO2 in the air? Even massive volcanic eruptions, world wide, for a year, could not do that.

Guess what? Lead in the air is a lot more lethal than CO2. And guess which countries put the most lead in the air? China and France.  Sure, enough of any substance in the air is lethal.  So is oxigen. Increase the O2 in the atmopshere a couple percent and we'd have global super fire storms.

No one is talking about CO2 becomign 15% of the atmosphere because humans are incapable of producing that much CO2 any time soon.

on Dec 16, 2003
Draginol,
of course the percentage is nonsensical. It's an arguement about concept. I've taken the absolute extreme to show that there is a limit. In effect this is an exhaustible commodity. If there is a limit then there must eventually be some collective responsibility. If you agree with Lincoln and his "all men are created equal" statement, then why do you feel you have a bigger right to release more CO2 than anyone else (so long as you use it 'efficiently').

Why can't I burn a single stick for warmth on a cold night, but you can burn a whole forest to produce a car?

Paul.
on Dec 16, 2003
Draginol,

If you Haven't check the EPA web site related to global warming, you might have a look

http://yosemite.epa.gov/oar/globalwarming.nsf/content/index.html

They do the CO2 connection to global warming in a very good way. Are they corrupted by the bloody chinese, french or german ?

Increasing the efficiency of economy to deal with CO2 production is naturaly a very good step. Toward the reduction of the global production.

Another thing, lead is very naughty for health. Anyway, I don't thing you could put is a global danger in the same perspective than greenhouse gaz.

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