Brad Wardell's views about technology, politics, religion, world affairs, and all sorts of politically incorrect topics.
Emissions should be tied to GDP
Published on December 9, 2003 By Draginol In Politics

The chart below is a chart of CO2 emissions vs. Gross Domestic Product (GDP). Many in Europe falsely accuse George W. Bush of "killing" the Kyoto accords. In actuality, the Kyoto accords died in the United States in 1998.  They don't have a chance to pass in the United States no matter who is President because the Kyoto accords are, basically, a joke.

Now, if you're not familiar with the Kyoto accords (most Americans who argue for it probably have never looked at it) let me give you a primer: The accords are designed so that countries will reduce the amount of green house gas to be 5% less than they were in 1990 (which I've highlighted).

Data Source: IEA CO2 Emissions from Fossil Fuel Combustion
Data Provider: International Energy Agency
 

The first issue Americans have is the arbitrary choice of year -- 1990.  In 1990, the United States was in the midst of an economic boom while many nations in Europe (notably France) were suffering a relative economic slowdown.  Why 1990?

The second problem has to do with reporting. How accurate are reportings on CO2 emissions? I suspect they are very accurate in most western European nations, Japan, and the United States.  But look at the countries that they have. How do they measure Angola?

The third problem has to do with the one size fits all solution. It's a helluva lot easier for say France to lower its emissions. Just tighter controls on its remaining factories.  The United States, however, is a relatively sparsely populated nation spanning a continent. Much of the CO2 emissions in the United States are from cars. How exactly is the US supposed to solve that? Smaller cars? Small cars are nice in urban environments. But most of the driving takes place outside the cities in the suburbs and changing that reality isn't doable or practical or even necessarily desirable. And people driving significant distances to work are not likely to tolerate doing it in tiny cars to satisfy some European politicans who have decided that CO2 emissions are going to cause global warming (when I was a kid, it was global cooling that was all the rage).

The fourth problem is related to the third, different industries have different requirements and difficulties to reduce CO2 emissions.  The American power production grid is largely coal based. France's, being controlled by the government, is largely nuclear. I would love to see the US move to nuclear power for power generation but the same people who want Kyoto are usually the same people protesting against nuclear power plants.  And France is transitioned to being a post-industrial nation. Do they still have factories in Paris?

The biggest problem, however, has to do with economics. If times are good, emissions go up. Many Americans see the Kyoto accords as a cynical attempt to try to slow down the US economy.

What Bush and many Americans have supported is the idea of trying to tie emissions to GDP.  That is, become more efficient at power generation.

Interpreting the table

There's a lot of countries on that table so let's get to the bottom line here.

The United States went from 1191 (1972) to 650 (1999).  So the United States has greatly improved its efficiency in power.  Instead of tarring and feathering the United States, people should be pleased that the US (and the world in general) has gotten so much better at using energy more efficiently.

Other countries who are roughly the same as the United States (or worse) include Canada, Romania, Australia, China, Cuba, Poland, (heck pretty much all of eastern Europe).

The former Soviet Union is at 1530.5.  Think about that. That's worse than the United States was in 1972. Anyone who's visited Moscow can tell you the air conditions there.

The worst country, btw, was Iraq at 2816. You'd think that the Euroleft would be glad to see the US take out the world's worst polluter per GDP.

But really, the numbers show another trend - countries that produce energy have high emissions. Hence, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, etc. have high emissions. And it's not commonly known but do you know which country produces the most energy each year? It's not Saudi Arabia. It's the United States. It's just that we consume so much that we still have to import. But think about that, despite producing more energy each year than any of the countries in the middle east we still have a remarkably low emissions per GDP.

If you have any doubt about the correlation between energy production (oil refining) and emissions, Egypt, which is quite close to Saudi Arabia, has an emissions ratio of 529. That's less than one fifth that of most of the oil producing states in the middle east.

And btw, Germany, the Netherlands, Belgium, Finland, and others who produce virtually no energy are not significantly better than the United States. The USA is around 650, Germany is at 444. That's 200 units difference. When you take into account that they are relatively small countries that don't have the massive automobile use of the US and Canada and don't refine their own fuel, they are actually remarkably inefficient. They should actually be much lower than that considering their relatively ideal conditions. And don't forget the emissions in the United States from having to transport goods across the continent (such as the food many Europeans eat).

BTW, Ethiopia is at only 75.9. Are they who we should be striving to emulate?

To all but the most hard headed, it should be clear why the Kyoto accords were always unworkable. It was a simplistic solution to a complex problem. And besides, that, it's really hard to take France and Belgium and other Europeans terribly seriously about environmental issues when they are just now phasing out leaded gasoline (want to talk really nasty stuff).

The US senate, in 1998, did the right thing by voting a resolution (unanimously) making it clear that these flawed, simplistic protocols would never be welcome here. On top of all this, there's the basic issue that odds are, Kyoto is meaningless when it comes to the environment. CO2 emissions going back to 1990 levels may (and in my opinion would) do nothing to affect the weather either way. The in the 70s climate models showed global cooling. Now we hear about global warming. In reality, we don't know and we also don't really know whether we produce enough CO2 to make that kind of effect. But that's a different discussion enitrely.

When Kyoto's advocates are ready for taking a stab at serious environment resolutions the US will be waiting. But having Europeans trying to take the high ground on environmental issues is like having a vegetarian chain smoker trying to take the high ground on health issues over a non-smoker who happens to eat red meat.


Comments (Page 3)
3 Pages1 2 3 
on Dec 16, 2003

of course the percentage is nonsensical. It's an arguement about concept. I've taken the absolute extreme to show that there is a limit. In effect this is an exhaustible commodity. If there is a limit then there must eventually be some collective responsibility. If you agree with Lincoln and his "all men are created equal" statement, then why do you feel you have a bigger right to release more CO2 than anyone else (so long as you use it 'efficiently').

Why can't I burn a single stick for warmth on a cold night, but you can burn a whole forest to produce a car?

Your argument is non-sensical because it doesn't apply to reality. LIke I said, there are plenty of things that Kyoto doesn't cover that are far more serious (such as lead ans sulfur emmissions which the United States is MUCH MUCH better about than Europe or Asia). 

The United States isn't arguing how other countries should conduct their affairs on energy use. It is the Kyoto advocates that are.

Jepel:

Now, regarding CO2 connection to global warming: CO2 IS a green house gas.  No one is disputing that (nice try though). What is in dispute is whether humans are currently producing enough CO2 to have an effect on the weather.  It hasn't even been determined whether there is global warming, let alone whether humans have something to do with it.

I agree that lead is bad for your health. So is Sulfur Dioxide. So where is the worldwide treaty to ban putting those in the air? The US is far ahead in those areas and those things are much more damaging.  Or what about CFCs? Those wipe out the ozone layer. Very serious stuff.  Where's the anger that China still makes use of CFCs? Or Russia or parts of Eastern Europe?

I find it odd that the only thing you guys seem to care about is CO2. And you only care selectively. It's okay that China pollutes so bad that it shows up on sattelite photos. But oh no, the US, the world's largest energy producer (and consumer) is putting CO2 in the air.  Brazil, meanwhile, wipes out huge parts of its forests every day that produce a the single largest chunk of the O2 in our atmosphere.  Japan and other countries are wiping out species of whales in the oceans in International waters. Russia has a series of nuclear reactors that are quite likely in the next 50 years to cause catastrophic contamination that could affect the whole world. Europe pumps thousands of tons of lead into the atmsophere annually. But no, those things arne't a concern because big bad USA is putting CO2 (the item that, btw, plants require to live) into the air in levels so trivial that even if the US ceased to produce any it would make no measurable difference to world-wide CO2 levels.

And you wonder why Americans don't take you guys seriously.

on Dec 17, 2003
If you had been on the website (american) I give you the link to. You would have read that the correlation even if it's not strongly proven is still striking. Mat be the earth is getting warm for different reason that human activity, may be it's no big deal. Does that mean that we should produce even more CO2 ?

And yes, there is plenty of chemical toxic for human and environment. So because there is a lot and everybody does it, it shouldn't be controled ?

You shouldn't bring the star and stripe at all you comment. I'm sure that there a lot of american that don't think the same way as yours. Are they less american ?



on Dec 18, 2003
Draginol,
of course people agree that other pollutants are very important. No one is arguing against this, but as stated before you're talking about the Kyoto accords on global warming. Hence CO2. You take the view (and are perfectly entitled to) that CO2 is not causing global warming, which is fine. You also take the view though that the US can continue to pump more and more CO2 into the atmosphere so long as it gets more production from it. This I totally disagree with.

Do you honestly believe that the US can increase CO2 pollution indefinitely and all other countries could pollute by the same levels without any ill effects? They can get more efficient but they're still increasing pollution. Where does it stop? 10 years time, 100 years time? At what stage do you realise there is a problem?

And back to the other question which you avoided. If all men are created equal then why does the US object to China or Russia being allowed emit as much pollution per person? I didn't see Lincoln stating that all men are created equal so long as they are equally efficient! Why can't a Russian burn a single stick for warmth when an American can burn a forest to build a car?

Paul.
on Dec 18, 2003
I sure hear more about Kyoto being evil Bush than say effort being put in to stop things like...oh say pumping lead into the air.
on Dec 19, 2003
Is there a mis-type in the last line? I think I know what you're trying to say. I agree with you that non global warming pollutants are not yet being treated with as much vigour, but they will be. Lead pollution is just a seperate topic from CO2, not in any way less important.

I notice Science magazine lists climate change impact work as the 3rd most important scientific work of the year.

Paul.
on Dec 19, 2003
As I have said in a recent blog, Republicans[conservatives] are brilliant in the strategy of deception; in other words, supreme sophistry that corrupts argument. The Drag, also, unwittingly praises the relatively good job the US is doing in emissions--thanks to energy conscious Dems.
on Dec 19, 2003

. Yea, deception.  How about liberal hypocricy?  Which gets more press? Whining about Kyoto or treaties to reduce REAL pollution from the atmosphere.

When liberals start showing some concern over China's massive pollution problems intead of bitching because Clinton (not Bush) didn't get the Kyoto accord through congress, then maybe you'll have some credibility.

on Jan 10, 2004
"Rise of every empire leads its way too destuction"

America's mayb the worlds daddy now, but let me assure you, when you and your kids are brutally obliterated, when you reach ur limit and *POP* (like a virgins girl cherry is taken - when she savagly raped by many many men) by people who you do not even consider as being human's... then your cries will be the beautiful music to ears that everyone needs to relax too.

Now listen Brad Wardell "The f00lish goat who knew all, only too be chewed and shited out by Mr. Wolf Ariel. Heir"

Lemme just make one point.

My dad hits me.. My mum hits me.. ok fine i hate thm... (if this was an american kid - (thn sadly he would go buy a gun and shoot his parents along with a few more kids he dnt like in skool) but neway.. i was sayin... I hate thm but at the end of the day thy r family and my hate goes away.. but all of a sudden coma big mad with a axe and slaughters my whole family in front of jus coz he thinks its rite and he thinks hes helped me frm my parents beating (which are very usefu l somtimes as part of growing up and life) -- now the question is would i like tht guy frm som next place which who has nothing to do with me for making me n orfan or would i lov him n adore him n make him my dad?

well the answer is NO u fuckin stupid US biatch! i would wanna break his skull - poke his eyes out and slaughter him like a fuckin cow and eat his meat! why?? coz he got nothing to do with me!

no the whole point is tht america should mind ther own fuckin bussiness n sort ther own ppl out and do not get into other ppl's bussiness! u shitweed!

if i was u i b more worried about the niggeo control in the US thn anything else...

bitch!
on Jan 10, 2004
Brad Wardell
I wouldnt give out my personal info and pics on the net... Like thy said "A goat is always a goat" and a goat is f00d, unless ur vegie

anyway.. i m jus sayin with ur anti-islamic view, u shouldnt realli gvi out ur personal info online.. only a friendly advice and its no threat.. plz dnt get me rong
on Jan 10, 2004
Let me make one other point! None of this material is amied at you Mr Brad Wardell

Please do not take them in a rong sense... Everything in all the threads is for entertaining purpose only >
on Jan 10, 2004
when you and your kids are brutally obliterated <-- I am srry you do have kids, but it is not aimed at your family, Its in general... once again for entertainment purpose only along with everything else

I iz sorry for my rude behavior

I shall try n b nicer
on Jan 10, 2004
Get a life.
on Jun 09, 2004
The table is not CO2 "VERSUS" GDP. The US hasn't cut it's CO2 emissions as implied - they've increased significantly.

Brad should try telling the unvarnished truth for a while, and see if that changes some of his beliefs.

... despite his education, doesn't appear to be a rocket scientist.
3 Pages1 2 3