Brad Wardell's views about technology, politics, religion, world affairs, and all sorts of politically incorrect topics.
Emissions should be tied to GDP
Published on December 9, 2003 By Draginol In Politics

The chart below is a chart of CO2 emissions vs. Gross Domestic Product (GDP). Many in Europe falsely accuse George W. Bush of "killing" the Kyoto accords. In actuality, the Kyoto accords died in the United States in 1998.  They don't have a chance to pass in the United States no matter who is President because the Kyoto accords are, basically, a joke.

Now, if you're not familiar with the Kyoto accords (most Americans who argue for it probably have never looked at it) let me give you a primer: The accords are designed so that countries will reduce the amount of green house gas to be 5% less than they were in 1990 (which I've highlighted).

Data Source: IEA CO2 Emissions from Fossil Fuel Combustion
Data Provider: International Energy Agency
 

The first issue Americans have is the arbitrary choice of year -- 1990.  In 1990, the United States was in the midst of an economic boom while many nations in Europe (notably France) were suffering a relative economic slowdown.  Why 1990?

The second problem has to do with reporting. How accurate are reportings on CO2 emissions? I suspect they are very accurate in most western European nations, Japan, and the United States.  But look at the countries that they have. How do they measure Angola?

The third problem has to do with the one size fits all solution. It's a helluva lot easier for say France to lower its emissions. Just tighter controls on its remaining factories.  The United States, however, is a relatively sparsely populated nation spanning a continent. Much of the CO2 emissions in the United States are from cars. How exactly is the US supposed to solve that? Smaller cars? Small cars are nice in urban environments. But most of the driving takes place outside the cities in the suburbs and changing that reality isn't doable or practical or even necessarily desirable. And people driving significant distances to work are not likely to tolerate doing it in tiny cars to satisfy some European politicans who have decided that CO2 emissions are going to cause global warming (when I was a kid, it was global cooling that was all the rage).

The fourth problem is related to the third, different industries have different requirements and difficulties to reduce CO2 emissions.  The American power production grid is largely coal based. France's, being controlled by the government, is largely nuclear. I would love to see the US move to nuclear power for power generation but the same people who want Kyoto are usually the same people protesting against nuclear power plants.  And France is transitioned to being a post-industrial nation. Do they still have factories in Paris?

The biggest problem, however, has to do with economics. If times are good, emissions go up. Many Americans see the Kyoto accords as a cynical attempt to try to slow down the US economy.

What Bush and many Americans have supported is the idea of trying to tie emissions to GDP.  That is, become more efficient at power generation.

Interpreting the table

There's a lot of countries on that table so let's get to the bottom line here.

The United States went from 1191 (1972) to 650 (1999).  So the United States has greatly improved its efficiency in power.  Instead of tarring and feathering the United States, people should be pleased that the US (and the world in general) has gotten so much better at using energy more efficiently.

Other countries who are roughly the same as the United States (or worse) include Canada, Romania, Australia, China, Cuba, Poland, (heck pretty much all of eastern Europe).

The former Soviet Union is at 1530.5.  Think about that. That's worse than the United States was in 1972. Anyone who's visited Moscow can tell you the air conditions there.

The worst country, btw, was Iraq at 2816. You'd think that the Euroleft would be glad to see the US take out the world's worst polluter per GDP.

But really, the numbers show another trend - countries that produce energy have high emissions. Hence, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, etc. have high emissions. And it's not commonly known but do you know which country produces the most energy each year? It's not Saudi Arabia. It's the United States. It's just that we consume so much that we still have to import. But think about that, despite producing more energy each year than any of the countries in the middle east we still have a remarkably low emissions per GDP.

If you have any doubt about the correlation between energy production (oil refining) and emissions, Egypt, which is quite close to Saudi Arabia, has an emissions ratio of 529. That's less than one fifth that of most of the oil producing states in the middle east.

And btw, Germany, the Netherlands, Belgium, Finland, and others who produce virtually no energy are not significantly better than the United States. The USA is around 650, Germany is at 444. That's 200 units difference. When you take into account that they are relatively small countries that don't have the massive automobile use of the US and Canada and don't refine their own fuel, they are actually remarkably inefficient. They should actually be much lower than that considering their relatively ideal conditions. And don't forget the emissions in the United States from having to transport goods across the continent (such as the food many Europeans eat).

BTW, Ethiopia is at only 75.9. Are they who we should be striving to emulate?

To all but the most hard headed, it should be clear why the Kyoto accords were always unworkable. It was a simplistic solution to a complex problem. And besides, that, it's really hard to take France and Belgium and other Europeans terribly seriously about environmental issues when they are just now phasing out leaded gasoline (want to talk really nasty stuff).

The US senate, in 1998, did the right thing by voting a resolution (unanimously) making it clear that these flawed, simplistic protocols would never be welcome here. On top of all this, there's the basic issue that odds are, Kyoto is meaningless when it comes to the environment. CO2 emissions going back to 1990 levels may (and in my opinion would) do nothing to affect the weather either way. The in the 70s climate models showed global cooling. Now we hear about global warming. In reality, we don't know and we also don't really know whether we produce enough CO2 to make that kind of effect. But that's a different discussion enitrely.

When Kyoto's advocates are ready for taking a stab at serious environment resolutions the US will be waiting. But having Europeans trying to take the high ground on environmental issues is like having a vegetarian chain smoker trying to take the high ground on health issues over a non-smoker who happens to eat red meat.


Comments (Page 1)
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on Dec 09, 2003
Interesting, but there is a bit mistake: We now know that reducing OC2 emission is useful, because many countries did so and... tadam!!! Miracle !! In Sael, the desert was going forward and forward... and now, it's going backward ! Scients are now almost sure that reduction of OC2 emission has something to do with it.
This said, the article is interesting, and the table too: Particularly interesting to see that even if US did not sign the Kyoto protocol, they did a great job at reducing OC2 emission.
on Dec 09, 2003
Good information. Like many I didn't really know anything about Kyoto. I had assumed Bush wouldn't sign it because he is so pro big business. A fair assumption considering his track record on envioremental issues.

"Much of the CO2 emissions in the United States are from cars. How exactly is the US supposed to solve that? Smaller cars?"

It wouldn't even have to be smaller cars, just average size cars would be a huge improvement over all the SUVs, trucks and vans on the road. When I look at traffic it looks like roughly half of all vehicles fall into the "big" category and that simply isn't necessary. Look inside all those SUVs and in almost every case only one or two people is in them. Vehicles that don't get at least 25mpg should be heavily taxed unless it is needed for the work that you do.

I think there are better options than nuclear power.

1. A significant tax on inefficient vehicles
2. Federal money to improve mass transit systems in all large cities
3. Ban incandescent light bulbs
4. Significant tax credit for purchasing an alternative energy source; eg solar, wind, hydro.
on Dec 09, 2003
XXX: I coudl just as easily say that the desert receded thanks to my magic rock. Would you like to purchase my magic rock?

BTW, CO2 emissions haven't gone down worldwide. They've gone up. It's just that CO2 emissions per economic output have gone down. Which is good, it demonstrates a commitment to efficiency.

Bush being pro/anti Kyoto never was an issue because it had already died before Bush was elected. Blaming Bush (or crediting Bush depending on your POV) for Kyoto's failure is like blaming/crediting Bush for the Vietnam war.
on Dec 09, 2003
BTW, even if we increased the gase mileage of our vehciles by 25% it would be a drop in the bucket.

All of the things you mention really just trim around the edges without much effect.

If you want to *reduce* CO2 emissions in the United States you have to move away from coal burning power generation and move away from fossil fuel cars.

Solar, wind, hydro are not going to make a significant dent. In fact, wind power is actually awful because the energy involved in creating the wind mills is immense and the return marginal.
on Dec 09, 2003
I think if all of my suggestions were implemented, the result would be significant. Here are some made up numbers to demonstrate.

1. 25% less emissions from autos.
2. The implementation of quality mass transit systems, lets say that is a 15% drop
3. Getting rid of incandescent light bulbs? How about 10%.
4. An increase in the use of alternative energy? 15%?

Total=65%(?) decrease in emissions.

That does not strike me as a drop in the bucket. As for what types of alternative energy sources are good or bad, that is completely dependant on where you live. In some places wind is great, in others it is not.
on Dec 09, 2003
When you make up your numbers you can have all kinds of fun.

Lightbulbs cause 10% of our CO2 emissions? "Alternative" energy? You think wind, hydro, and solar can make up 15% of our energy? Explain. Hydro is already pretty much maximized. Solar costs a lot of energy to produce the panels, only work in some areas, and are incredibly inefficient. And wind power is a total bust. In the best conditions it takes years for them to break even in how much energy it requires. And guess what? Even if we maxed that out you're talking a few percent.

Right now, only nuclear power could generate a major dent power generation. Lightbulbs represent a tiny tiny number. Mass transit? In the United States? Huh? Using what? Trains? That would cost Trillions (with a T) and probably not reduce emissions by 15%. 25% less from emissions. How?

Here's how you reduce emissions:

1) Switch to nuclear power generation
2) Migrate to fuel cells on cars.

That's it. But the two won't happen any time soon.
on Dec 10, 2003
"Lightbulbs cause 10% of our CO2 emissions?"

OK, pick a number and adjust the total accordingly.

"You think wind, hydro, and solar can make up 15% of our energy?"

First, I am speaking of all sources of alternative energy. Second, solar alone could make up 15%.

"Solar costs a lot of energy to produce the panels..."

I did not know this, could you elaborate?

"[solar panels] are incredibly inefficient."

I have read that they pay for themselves and then some.

"Mass transit? In the United States? Huh? Using what? Trains? That would cost Trillions (with a T)..."

If that is true then I retract that suggestion...maybe. Guestimating, based on what it cost to implement trains in Portland OR, the cost would be less than 1 trillion. How to pay for it? How about canceling a Big Government project (which you as a Republican hate), like say...the war on drugs.

"1) Switch to nuclear power generation"

I am not opposed to that, but I think it's best if we can do without it.

"2) Migrate to fuel cells on cars."

Is that feasable now? I fully support it, if it is. If it's not, then it isn't relevant.

on Dec 10, 2003
Interesting article Draginol but as mentioned time and time again it sets no LIMITS on how much a country can pollute. Let me elaborate

By your arguement America could triple it's release of CO2 but reduce it's emission to 600 per GDP and you'd be happy.

Three times more pollution and you'd be happy.

See the problem yet?

When you look at the total pollution from a country (as Kyoto does) you see a different story. You see some countries have successfully reduced total emissions (like China) while others have increased total emissions by 15% (like the US). As many poorer countries point out "why should a rich country with lots of industry be allowed to pollute more?". Just being more efficient at polluting is not good enough. It doesn't guarentee a REDUCTION in total pollution.

Paul.
on Dec 10, 2003
To answer some of the other qustions others have raised,

Wind farms are actually highly efficient and very good at repaying their build costs within a few years. Off shore wind farms are particularly good as they also don't create "visual pollution" on the landscape. Improvements in wind turbines in the past few years have been huge and many European countries are now looking at using wind farms to up their renewable energy production to 20% of total production (a target provisionally agreed within the EU).

Solar cells are very efficient but are not very environmentally friendly in their materials and production. They do pay for themselves over a fairly short period of time though (assuming decent sunlight). More modern solar cells have begun to appear on the market that are even more efficient and less expensive to manufacture. Polymer electronics will totally revolutionise this area.

Paul.
on Dec 10, 2003
solitaire is entirely right. Because you are talking of a rate. Double GDP and double CO2 emission will give the same rate. This index is a pretty good tool for comparing countries efficiency toward CO2 emissions not for showing the variation of emission.

There is also another bias in your argument that is related in the definition of GDP. A definition of GDP I obtain from http://economics.about.com/library/glossary/bldef-gdp.htm said:

"The GDP is the market value of all the goods and services producted by labor and property located in" the region, usually a country. It equals GNP minus the net inflow of labor and property incomes from abroad". So you put together GDP growth from industry, agriculture and services. Industry and agriculture are good producer of CO2 as service is less. If GDP growth from service increase quicker than the GDP growth from the other you will not correlate really the real polution to the real polluter by using you table. You could pretend that the economy as a whole is becoming more eficient for producing wealth.

That come to a second thing about the value of GDP, because it is tie to the market price. If you have a big stock market growth due to speculation, wouldn't it be reflected on the GDP by increasing it and so induce a decrease of the index in the table ?

One last point is according to BBC world archive, USA in 1997 was responsible for 35% of greenhouse gas ever produced but counting for only 4% of world population. Shouldn't it be (as the world sole hyperpower) held responsible for showing the way ?

on Dec 10, 2003
oh just another article abt how gr8 USA is and just blame the rest of da world 4 all the problems (mayb others kno who is da problem) , blame it on countries dat does not hav the might to talk bac.... dats cool ...... doesnt care abt the world u kno........ they think dat da rest of da world is justa piece of shit...... i bet most of americans hav no idea abt wat is happenin in other countries or how the people in other countries are
on Dec 10, 2003
@aryan: Yes, most American's probably do care less about other countries, and dare I say most people in EVERY country feels the same way. I find it hard to believe that some peasant out in China pulling up rice grains with his hand is really interested in the CO2 emmisions of American industries. Please, your calling the kettle black.

Also, writing intelligently and readable (aka not "elite") is far more effective at getting your point across.
on Dec 10, 2003
Solitair: You are correct - I believe countries should be "allowed" to put as much CO2 into the atmosphere as they choose. However, I think that every country has a moral duty to try to use energy wisely. But yes, 600 GDP even if it trippled CO2 emissions wouldn't bug me one bit. At the same time, history has shown the United States making remarkable strides in energy efficiency despite all the disadvantages it has being a continental nation split by mountain ranges and such. Canada, btw, is just as inefficient as the United States. Didn't they sign Kyoto. Why not go yell at them. What's their excuse?

Abe: You can't just pick numbers out of your rear end and say things like Solar could reduce global emissions by 15%. You need to have soemthing called sources to back up your info. But I can tell you right now there is no feasible way for solar energy to reduce emissions by a significant amount.

Solitair: The other problem is that you rely on CO2 emissions stats. China lies on all kinds of statistics, why should you trust their CO2 emissions? It's hard to take China's anti-pollution seriously when satellites can VISUALLY see a brown cloud over China. Do you have any idea how much pollution they must be doing in order to have their pollution show up from space?

http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/south/08/12/asia.haze/

If China has reduced its CO2 emissions, and I have my doubts, it's only because they were so incredibly inefficient before that just moving from say wood burnign stoves in every home in their major cities to a central coal based power plant would reduce emissions massively.

What should matter is that China, even using their, ahem, statistics, is much less efficietn with their energy. And they have far FAR less excuse because they, being an authoritarian regime, could simply put in nuclear power plants and put their major cities on such a grid. But they haven't. They apparently don't really care that much.
on Dec 11, 2003
The bottom line of your argument is that polluting shouldn't be considered as a problem globally but locally. And you could pollute as much as you want if it is done the more effficiently that you can... Sorry, but if you act like this in your house, I wouldn't be one of your neighbourhood. I find your argument both weak and insensitive. May be you like to live in rubish...
on Dec 11, 2003
Draginol, when I preface a statement with "I am making this up", I can pull anything out of my ass that I want. The purpose of my numbers post (which should have been obvious to you) was to loosely demonstrate that implementing a variety of solutions could make a significant impact on emissions and energy efficiency.

"...say things like Solar could reduce global emissions by 15%."

OK, where exactly did I say that? I didn't, did I?
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