Obama: Connecting the dots

on Mar 17, 2008

Personally, I don't think the man likes the United States at all. I think he is like a significant percentage of the Democratic left that thinks the US is fundamentally flawed and wants to "Change" it to reflect the values they think it should have.

Isn't that a good thing? I'm not too sure about McCain's politics, but if he's much of a conservative the American people will have a choice between changing and staying much the same. Which way they vote (if they bother at all) will be an object lesson in how Americans feel about the way the country is being run.

Assuming, of course, that it becomes obvious Obama is out to change the US - his campaign of hope, flowers, sunshine and change is fairly unsubtle, but there's no underestimating the capacity of news services to reinterpret the obvious.

Edit: I'm working of course on the assumption that he does want to make fundamental changes. Most previous elections have candidates who position themselves differently but hold all the same core values - their differences, as they exist, have been on the peripheries, such as gay marriage/abortions/aggressive words/etc.

Generally core positions on rights, the military, US supremacy and expanding presidential authority are similar or identical.

2

Draginol

on Mar 17, 2008

I wouldn't consider it a good thing for someone who thinks the United States is fundamentally a bad country to be its President. I think the US is a great country and while there are changes I'd like to see, I don't think there is anything fundamentally flawed about it.

3

cactoblasta

on Mar 18, 2008

So you consider democracy a good thing only when it achieves the aims you personally believe in?

I'm surprised to hear this kind of talk from you. You always write like a small-d democrat.

I'd agree with you, of course - the people aren't fit to rule. But the alternatives are pretty horrible.

If fundamental changes are what the people want though, that's what you're going to get. Who knows - maybe they'll arrest the economic decline, make wars a success again and reinvigorate respect for America abroad, thereby reducing the need for further warmaking.

Unlikely, sure, but you never know - maybe the unseen hand will still love America even if it doesn't agree with your views!

4

Dr Guy

on Mar 18, 2008

Isn't that a good thing?

Fire is a good thing - when used for the right reason. When not, it is a bad thing. When the premise is flawed to begin with, the only results will not be good.

You may think the US is a bad country, but then you will never be president. Obama may. And he is starting from the wrong premise. Even Hillary does not think the US is bad, just that it needs improving.

There is a big difference when you boss says "You are a stupid ignorant fool that cant tie your shoes and chew gum at the same time" versus "I see a lot of good work from you and I know you can be even better. Let's work on making you an excellent employee.".

Obama is the first. And not what any country needs to lead it.

5

Draginol

on Mar 18, 2008

So you consider democracy a good thing only when it achieves the aims you personally believe in? I'm surprised to hear this kind of talk from you. You always write like a small-d democrat. I'd agree with you, of course - the people aren't fit to rule. But the alternatives are pretty horrible. If fundamental changes are what the people want though, that's what you're going to get. Who knows - maybe they'll arrest the economic decline, make wars a success again and reinvigorate respect for America abroad, thereby reducing the need for further warmaking. Unlikely, sure, but you never know - maybe the unseen hand will still love America even if it doesn't agree with your views!

What kind of strawman is that?

I am saying that I am not in going to support a candidate who thinks that the United States is fundamentally flawed.

I generally think the US is a force for good in the world
I think our economic system provides the greatest benefit to the most people
I think that our culture and society is fair and decent
I am proud of the accomplishments of our country over its 200 years.

Someone who disagrees with that is not someone I want to be leading our country.

6

cactoblasta

on Mar 18, 2008

I am saying that I am not in going to support a candidate who thinks that the United States is fundamentally flawed.

Okay then. I thought you were trying to go further than just expressing your stance, but I guess not.

7

CharlesCS

on Mar 24, 2008

I have to agree with Draginol on this. Obama's idea of change is more than just some adjustments or repairs. His idea is more of a complete renovation. Obama makes it seem is if this country is broken and as oppose to fixing it, it would be better to simply replace it.

8

Kruelgor

on Mar 26, 2008

If you're a Christian then you must not not ignore the prophecies in the Book of Revelation.

With Obama, you couldn't write a better script to describe how the Anti-Christ takes control of the most powerful nation on earth.

Event the Mayans predicted a cataclysmic "change" for planet earth in the year 2012. This will be Obama's last year in office. Could it be nuclear war?

9

Benmeister

on Mar 26, 2008

The revelations that Obama's paster is a rabidly anti-American who clearly hates this country on their own wouldn't be that damaging. But when combined with Obama's wife's statements that she has never been proud of this country until recently and Obama's own issues with the pledge of allegiance, flag pin wearing, etc. you begin to see a pattern. Personally, I don't think the man likes the United States at all. I think he is like a significant percentage of the Democratic left that thinks the US is fundamentally flawed and wants to "Change" it to reflect the values they think it should have.

Obama's wife didn't say she's never been proud of this country. She said "for the first time in my lifetime, I'm really proud of my country."

Hell, Bush said: "They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."

If you look at Obama's platform, it's pretty moderate compared to Clinton's and even McCain's.

10

PGHammer

on Mar 26, 2008

cactoblasta

Personally, I don't think the man likes the United States at all. I think he is like a significant percentage of the Democratic left that thinks the US is fundamentally flawed and wants to "Change" it to reflect the values they think it should have.Isn't that a good thing? I'm not too sure about McCain's politics, but if he's much of a conservative the American people will have a choice between changing and staying much the same. Which way they vote (if they bother at all) will be an object lesson in how Americans feel about the way the country is being run.Assuming, of course, that it becomes obvious Obama is out to change the US - his campaign of hope, flowers, sunshine and change is fairly unsubtle, but there's no underestimating the capacity of news services to reinterpret the obvious.Edit: I'm working of course on the assumption that he does want to make fundamental changes. Most previous elections have candidates who position themselves differently but hold all the same core values - their differences, as they exist, have been on the peripheries, such as gay marriage/abortions/aggressive words/etc.Generally core positions on rights, the military, US supremacy and expanding presidential authority are similar or identical.

Most of the Democratic base does not like the way the United States is *run*. (The party base, as we all know, are those that participate in the day-to-day operations of the party at the grass-roots level and also are usually the majority of voters in off-year elections.) And, realistically, for any Democratic presidential candidate to be nominated, he has to win over a majority of the party's base. (It's no different for the GOP, so don't sound so shocked.) However, while the GOP base is largely conservative, the base of the Democrats is liberal (almost Green, depending on the issue), strongly in favor of a large central government (and an equally large bureaucracy), yet is four-feet-in-the-air *dovish* on foreign policy (except for *humanitarian missions*; while the official DNC position is against the invasion of Iraq that toppled Saddam, they would have gladly sent troops (in fact, the same troops) to Sudan (specifically Darfur), where we would have had less in the way of international cooperation and no strategic or even tactical reason for committing troops). A certain President once called the now-late Saddam Hussein a madman, yet could not be bothered to raise anything more than indignation while he slaughtered his own citizens. (No wonder Saddam felt safe while he was in office.) His successor got his neighbors to actually agree that, despite the chaos that would almost certainly result (while the late dictator had less people skills than Hannibal Lechter, he also had the amazing ability to ruthlessly take out his internal opposition efficiently), Saddam *still* had to go. That should give you an idea which two Presidents I am referring to.

The reality is, I'm a registered Democrat (and voted for Obama in Maryland's primary); however, I'm actually aligned with McCain (not Obama or either Clinton) on foreign-policy or national-security issues. While I recognize that we have problems here at home that need fixing, the world is not going to stop turning just because we'd rather it did, and our enemies/adversaries aren't going to stop attacking us just because we asked nicely. Some of these adversaries are rather obvious (al-Qaida), while some are far from obvious (it is not all of Iran's ruling government that is against us, for example; just the most public part of it) and there are those that are, in fact, opposing the aims of radical Islamists in the most surprising places (the absolute last person I would have expected to hear calling for the overthrow of Iran's Sharia-based government would be the son of the man that put it in place, yet he has, in fact, done just that, more than once, and publicly). While McCain is, in fact, in favor of the current Iraq policy, he's never hidden why he is.

11

SilentPoet

on Mar 27, 2008

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=for+the+first+time+in+my+lifetime%2C+I%27m+really+proud+of+my+country%22&btnG=Google+Search

Could someone explain to me how he hates his country? How does being associated with a (admittedly off his rocker) pastor, equal him not liking the US?

If there's the sense of people owning up to what they say, then why associate Obama with what his wife said? Why are you taking something that someone else did, and trying to smudge obma with it? Did he make anti-america comments?

Did he - outright- say anything that was anti american? Not that I've seen, and I've been following him closely for quite some time.

So he is different with the pledge of allegience, and a flag pin, so what? He still loves america, and as he stated, it's just the way he grew up. He has his own way.

Are we all supposed to jump up and suddenly do things a certain way? Put our hands over our heart, wear little pins, say only good things about america? Uh, no. I'm not going to walk in a little line and mimic just because the nation suffers from hypocrisy in saying "Yes, come to our nation. We're open to you and your customs," but then collectively has a seizure when someone says something different, or not normal.

12

SilentPoet

on Mar 29, 2008

No reply?

13

Frogboy

on Mar 30, 2008

You basically ignored the original article and made a strawman.

14

hk48

on Mar 30, 2008

What is this "strawman" you speak of?

Draginol

What kind of strawman is that?

I am saying that I am not in going to support a candidate who thinks that the United States is fundamentally flawed.

I generally think the US is a force for good in the world
I think our economic system provides the greatest benefit to the most people
I think that our culture and society is fair and decent
I am proud of the accomplishments of our country over its 200 years.

Someone who disagrees with that is not someone I want to be leading our country.

I generally think the US is a force for good in the world.

Would the Iraqi people agree with us on this? We drove out Hussain, but they have had five years of secretairian fighting. There are plenty of other countries we could have invaded if we were out to help the people. Like Sudan, North Korea, etc. And that's not counting our history of slavery, discrimination, and the Native Americans.

I think our economic system provides the greatest benefit to the most people.

That obviously explains why there are slums and schools falling apart 5 miles from the Capitol and the White House.

I think that our culture and society is fair and decent.

I don't understand what you are getting at.

I am proud of the accomplishments of our country over its 200 years.

I completely agree. Our country done amazing things that we should all be proud of. Landing on the moon, the internet, computers, etc.

Michelle Obama's statement about not being proud was just more political BS that flies around during these times.

Is Barack Obama against these values and does he "hate" America?

I don't think so.

15

hk48

on Mar 30, 2008

What is this "strawman" you speak of?

Draginol

What kind of strawman is that?

I am saying that I am not in going to support a candidate who thinks that the United States is fundamentally flawed.

I generally think the US is a force for good in the world
I think our economic system provides the greatest benefit to the most people
I think that our culture and society is fair and decent
I am proud of the accomplishments of our country over its 200 years.

Someone who disagrees with that is not someone I want to be leading our country.

I generally think the US is a force for good in the world.

Would the Iraqi people agree with us on this? We drove out Hussain, but they have had five years of secretairian fighting. There are plenty of other countries we could have invaded if we were out to help the people. Like Sudan, North Korea, etc. And that's not counting our history of slavery, discrimination, and the Native Americans.

I think our economic system provides the greatest benefit to the most people.

That obviously explains why there are slums and schools falling apart 5 miles from the Capitol and the White House.

I think that our culture and society is fair and decent.

I don't understand what you are getting at.

I am proud of the accomplishments of our country over its 200 years.

I completely agree. Our country done amazing things that we should all be proud of. Landing on the moon, the internet, computers, etc.

Michelle Obama's statement about not being proud was just more political BS that flies around during these times.

Is Barack Obama against these values and does he "hate" America?

I don't think so.