Scoring the debates

Where we stand..

Published on October 8, 2004 By Draginol In Politics

I judge Kerry as the winner again in this debate. If I were to numerically score this based on my "gut" I'd give it like this:

Debate #1:
Kerry 5
Bush 2

Debate #2:
Cheney 2
Edwards 1

Debate #3:
Kerry 5
Bush 4

Total so far: Kerry/Edwards: 11 Bush/Cheney: 8

What do you think?

Comments (Page 3)

sandy2

on Oct 10, 2004

took me a while Gx. I thought you meant (thinking)- (pause) (still thinking) whoops

Grim Xiozan

on Oct 10, 2004

Well that could work too.

- GX

Abe Cubbage

on Oct 11, 2004

Oh no! Youv'e got me there! Pointing this out completely validates your point, because I could never point to one stance that Bush has that is against his religion. No sireeee...

drmiler, sorry for that juvenile response.

To answer your question...

Kerry has never had an abortion so he is not guilty of that sin. Having the thought that others can have an abortion I think would be classified by the catholic church as a venial sin (10 "our fathers and 5 "hail marys", bless you my son, go in peace to love and serve the Lord).

Killing someone is a major sin in any version of Christianity. That is something Bush is guilty of and I would assume Kerry is too since he has been in combat.

bakerstreet

on Oct 11, 2004

I imagine the Catholic Church doesn't consider soldiers killing soldiers murder, but then I'm not Catholic, so I don't have the right to speak for them.

"Having the thought that others can have an abortion I think would be classified by the catholic church as a venial sin "

That, I think, isn't a good description of what Kerry is doing. He is openly stating that a tenet of the Catholic religion is wrong, and promoting the practice as a fundamental right. I would say, also, that abortion is just a drop in the bucket of things about which Kerry differs with the RCC.

Sure, just thinking abortion is right might be a venial sin, but actively, functionally opposing the church and prmoting practices considered heinous goes a tad further. A few hundred years back we wouldn't be having and election, we'd be having a Kerry roast...

Abe Cubbage

on Oct 11, 2004

That, I think, isn't a good description of what Kerry is doing.

True.

As for Kerry's positions/actions, I am not taking the stance that they don't conflict with the RCC--obviously they do. I am saying that that this is also true of Bush--in regards to his version of Christianity.

blogic

on Oct 11, 2004

"He is openly stating that a tenet of the Catholic religion is wrong ... functionally opposing the church and promoting practices considered heinous"

Sorry, I just tuned in to this conversation. Are we talking about Bush's support of the death penalty?

bakerstreet

on Oct 11, 2004

Bush isn't Catholic, and the death penalty isn't universally opposed in Christianity. On the contrary, most protestant faiths admit the necessity of it.

blogic

on Oct 11, 2004

Bush is a United Methodist. This is what the United Methodist Church has to say regarding the death penalty: "The denomination opposes the death penalty. Bush supports it, while Kerry opposes it."

bakerstreet

on Oct 11, 2004

Nice try, blogic. I went to a Methodist college.

There are methodists, bishops, and others way up in the church, that openly question the divinity of Christ, that promote homosexual lifestyles, that are openly, rabidly pro-abortion etc., etc. I took 3 years of religion at said college and I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt that differing with the letter of Methodist doctrine not only isn't a problem, but can often be something to brag about and gets you credit and attention.

There are also Methodist churches throughout rural America that you would consider charismatic christian or Baptist if you hadn't looked at the sign outside. Doctrinally they don't resemble the standard Methodist dogma in the least. I used to drive a guy from church to church as a circuit minister and the congregations at come churches loved him, and at some churches wanted to lynch him.

They have a problem because Bush differs with the church via values leaning to the CONSERVATIVE side. When their own Bishops espouse values far, far left of Methodist doctrine, you don't hear a peep...

drmiler

on Oct 11, 2004

Reply #33 By: Abe Cubbage - 10/11/2004 4:17:58 PM
Oh no! Youv'e got me there! Pointing this out completely validates your point, because I could never point to one stance that Bush has that is against his religion. No sireeee...

drmiler, sorry for that juvenile response.

To answer your question...

Kerry has never had an abortion so he is not guilty of that sin. Having the thought that others can have an abortion I think would be classified by the catholic church as a venial sin (10 "our fathers and 5 "hail marys", bless you my son, go in peace to love and serve the Lord).

No he has never. But the fact remains that he not only agrees with abortion, But supports it! Which according to catholic idealology is a SIN. Crips he isn't even supposed to be recieving holy communion because of that. What your about to read is from the catholic church website.

COL Home > Featured Today > Headline

Headline
Catholics, John Kerry, Viagra, and Sin

By Matt Abbott
Op/Ed

I don’t know about you, but I’m sick and tired of seeing ads for Viagra (and its “brother” medicines) everywhere you look. You can’t get away from it, really. It’s on the television, in the sports stadiums, and in tons of “spam” e-mails. There's even a Viagra clock. And the latest “devil” ad campaign for Viagra – showing supposedly sex-hungry men growing devil’s horns - is nothing short of appalling.

Then there’s the upcoming election. The Iraq war. Forged documents. Debates. John Kerry. Catholics. Abortion. Sin.

Which brings me to my rhetorical moral question of the day: Which of these is sinful – A) a Catholic voting for pro-abortion John Kerry or

a Catholic married man using Viagra? Well, if you’re a liberal “Catholic,” there is no such thing as sin, save for voting Republican. If, however, you’re a faithful Catholic, then choice A could very well be sinful – not to mention unthinkable - but not so with choice B.

Link

BTW just an FYI catholics consider it a "mortal" sin not a venial sin. Nice try.

blogic

on Oct 11, 2004

BeliefNet is instructive on this issue:

What exactly is the position of the American bishops on this?

While a handful of outspoken bishops feel pro-choice Catholic politicians should be denied Communion, the majority have not taken a strong stance. In June, the U.S. bishops' meeting in Colorado decided to leave the question of Communion for pro-choice politicians up to individual bishops.

While a handful of outspoken bishops feel pro-choice Catholic politicians should be denied Communion, the majority have not taken a strong stance. In June, the U.S. bishops' meeting in Colorado decided to leave the question of Communion for pro-choice politicians up to individual bishops.

Is this just about Democratic Catholic politicians? I don't hear anything about denying Communion to Republican Rudy Guiliani, the former mayor of New York, or Arnold Schwarzenegger, pro-choice Republican governor of California.

It appears there have been no loud calls for pro-choice Republican Catholics to stay away from Communion. In the dioceses where bishops have been most critical of pro-choice leaders, Republican politicians tend to be pro-life.

Judie Brown of the American Life League has accused California bishops of giving Arnold Schwarzenegger "special treatment." Cardinal Roger Mahony of the Los Angeles diocese, where Schwarzenegger attends church, has indicated that he does not believe in denying Communion to people.

drmiler

on Oct 11, 2004

Reply #41 By: blogic - 10/11/2004 6:39:29 PM
BeliefNet is instructive on this issue:
What exactly is the position of the American bishops on this?

While a handful of outspoken bishops feel pro-choice Catholic politicians should be denied Communion, the majority have not taken a strong stance. In June, the U.S. bishops' meeting in Colorado decided to leave the question of Communion for pro-choice politicians up to individual bishops.

While a handful of outspoken bishops feel pro-choice Catholic politicians should be denied Communion, the majority have not taken a strong stance. In June, the U.S. bishops' meeting in Colorado decided to leave the question of Communion for pro-choice politicians up to individual bishops.

Is this just about Democratic Catholic politicians? I don't hear anything about denying Communion to Republican Rudy Guiliani, the former mayor of New York, or Arnold Schwarzenegger, pro-choice Republican governor of California.

It appears there have been no loud calls for pro-choice Republican Catholics to stay away from Communion. In the dioceses where bishops have been most critical of pro-choice leaders, Republican politicians tend to be pro-life.

Judie Brown of the American Life League has accused California bishops of giving Arnold Schwarzenegger "special treatment." Cardinal Roger Mahony of the Los Angeles diocese, where Schwarzenegger attends church, has indicated that he does not believe in denying Communion to people.

I would consider my link a littke closer to absolute since it came direct from catholic.org. ( "The" Catholic website. It don't get much more catholic than this unless you go to the Vatican's page.). Here is something from the UK on the subject: Link

EventHorizon

on Oct 11, 2004

Is this just about Democratic Catholic politicians? I don't hear anything about denying Communion to Republican Rudy Guiliani, the former mayor of New York, or Arnold Schwarzenegger, pro-choice Republican governor of California.

Thing is, Mr Schwarz and and Guiliani arent running for president.
Kerry, on the other hand is.

Now, its not so much the fact that Kerry supports abortion, but that he calls himself 'catholic' and at the same time, completely ignores his religion's teachings on the subject.
'Faith' for him is a chance to snag more votes, nothing more.
Disgusts me... A presidential candidate making a mockery of his own religion to win an election.

Abe Cubbage

on Oct 11, 2004

drmiler, you posted someone's opinion.

I am not really sure what else to say.

Grim Xiozan

on Oct 11, 2004

drmiler, you posted someone's opinion.

That someone being a Catholic who works for Catholic.org, THE Catholic Site second only to the Vatican.

- GX

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