The argument was never "he went to college, so that makes him qualified".  I argued that making it into *Harvard Law School*, one of the top law schools, in the country, and then graduating at the top of his class, is certainly a qualifying factor.  Someone who spends that much time studying the law, and at that institution, is certainly more qualified than someone who has not.  Furthermore, Obama took his law degree and went and taught Constitutional Law for 12 years.

Actually, it *does* matter.  There is a huge difference between majoring in Art History at your local state college and earning a JD from a top-tier law school.  You can't seriously be lobbing the two together.  Professional post-graduate degrees are not fluff "party school" affairs, especially not ones in law and medicine.

If you are choosing between two surgeons, I imagine you would take into account the fact that one graduated top of his class and the other squeaked by at the bottom.  If you are choosing a President, whose sworn duty is to defend and execute the Constitution, how is a thorough grounding in the law *not* a qualification?

 

This stuff is all readily available online.  From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obama:

"Obama moved to Chicago to work as a community organizer for three years from June 1985 to May 1988 as director of the Developing Communities Project (DCP), a church-based community organization originally comprising eight Catholic parishes in Greater Roseland (Roseland, West Pullman, and Riverdale) on Chicago's far South Side.^[12][14] During his three years as the DCP's director, its staff grew from 1 to 13 and its annual budget grew from $70,000 to $400,000, with accomplishments including helping set up a job training program, a college preparatory tutoring program, and a tenants' rights organization in Altgeld Gardens."

"Obama directed Illinois's Project Vote from April to October 1992, a voter registration drive with a staff of 10 and 700 volunteers and which achieved its goal of registering 150,000 of 400,000 unregistered African-Americans in the state"

[citation needed]

I'm no longer interested in this conversation.  You're for him, I'm not.  Believe what you want and see what you want.  I don't see McCain/Palin as more of the same and you probably do.  I don't think we're doomed either way as some seem to think.  I'm not jazzed about either option. 

Yep.  And I know how easy it is to get stuff on your wikipedia page.  Do you have any examples of actual people coming forward to say he helped them?  For that matter, if he's such a great guy, why don't we hear from old college buddies?  All of his friends that he was friends with a "long time ago" he has disassociated himself with (like his Reverend who he once claimed was like a mentor and family member, Ayers, etc.).

If he's such a great guy and has done such great things, it sure seems there'd be a lot more evidence.  There seems to be two Obamas, the one he claims to be and everyone wants to believe he is and the actual man. 

 

Fair enough.  It's too bad that reasonable people can't actually come to a consensus about facts, but instead have to leave things hanging out there as "beliefs".

Actually, I felt this way in 2000, when most of the country seemed inclined to give George W. the benefit of the doubt.  Boy was I proven wrong.  I've since learned that there *is* a difference, and if I can't discern it, I need to read more and research harder.

I feel McCain/Palin is not going to be quite the same as a Bush presidency, because most of the population at this point is tired of hearing the same tired lines trotted out against the same old bogeymen whenever anyone criticizes the presidency, questions the administration's policies, or brings up pesky things like Constitutional rights and due process.  What will be interesting, if McCain/Palin wins, is to see how they take the refined political propaganda machine of the GOP and tweak it up to the next level.  They picked a winner with Palin, because she basically ensures a lock-hold on the evangelical fundamentalist base of the party.  She can talk code to them, dropping lines that they can parse but which are entirely lost on the rest of the country, while McCain takes contrary positions to keep the moderates thinking that he's got their back.  At the same time, they'll continue the same fundamental ideology of the current administration: pre-emptive wars we can ill afford, critical analysis as treason, science as heresy, and media as propaganda.  Oh, and free reign for multinational corporations, until they need a bailout, at which point they just bust out the Fed credit card and print some more T-bills.

One of the biggest issues is what "our part" means and who gets to decide what's "fair".  The government is supposed to be working "for" the people.  I don't want a "leader" that will dictate to the people what temperature they can set the thermostat to, how we should inflate our tires, what kind of vehicle we can drive and what we can or can't eat. 

I'm more interested in taking care of our own first before promising money to foreign countries that don't even like us.  I'm for encouraging but not forcing people to take care of each other and fight for our country.  I have found Obama far from inspiring on that respect.

Obama is NOT the person I've been waiting for.

And as I said, no itis not.  It just shows you can learn.  What you do with it shows your accomplishments.  Dont confuse the 2.

No, it only shows you can learn, not that you can do.  As for the surgeon, Obama is no surgeon.

Then OBama is showing he did not learn anything.  For what he did with his degree is comparable to the Liberal Art Major's question - "do you want fries with that?".  Besides, you would think he would at least know the law.  Apparently he does not.

Have you tried to actually edit a wikipedia entry about anything of note?  It ain't all that "easy" to get stuff passed the editors and the vetting process.

Actually, I've read a number of interviews with people that I respect who have met and spoken or advised Obama in some regard, and the reports are all quite positive.  For instance, here is a Marc Andreesen blog post about some time he spent with Barack Obama: http://blog.pmarca.com/2008/03/an-hour-and-a-h.html

These are unlike the reports from, say, John McCain's naval academy buddies who remember him as a hot-tempered panty-chaser that scraped out of there at the very bottom of his class.  Here, for instance, is a piece by a former academy buddy of his who also spent time as a POW with him in Vietnam, about why he won't be voting for McCain:

http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:qq-1iVKbZIIJ:www.military.com/opinion/0,15202,164859_1,00.html

(This is a google cached version because the original has been removed.)

I'm sure you have a lot of "facts" to back that up with.  Regarding the media, I certainly didn't see anyone foaming at the mouth about the Dems the way Keith Oberman did/does about McCain.  The media is so incredibley left biased that I don't understand how any reasonable person could possibly deny it at this point.

Facts about universal health care are readily available.  Talk to anyone in any country that has universal health care about the bureaucracy that stands between them and life saving surgery.

We won't come to a consensus I'm sure.  It is easy to see how you see things and I am sure I won't be able to change that after going back and forth.  I'm merely a housewife with 3 young kids who does HR part time.  My time might not sound too valuable to some but I feel I have very little of it and therefore am careful how I spend it.  I simply don't see this discourse as a preferrable use of my time any longer.

then you need to vote democrat, as thoughout the years republicans are the ones who have scolded the dems for not spending enough on overseas spending.  The democrats dont support our allies enough, they dont fight for central american countries enough, they dont put money into Israel enough, it goes on and on.

I dont think Obama has done this, nor would he but his job as a leader is to suggest and help move the country towards a better more energy independant future.  All of those suggestions you listed help with conserving money and energy....hmmmm sounds like a terrible idea.

I personally think that making editor or president of Harvard Law Review is an accomplishment, but let's go with your scheme.  If anything that a person does while obtaining a university or graduate degree is not an accomplishment, then how about getting accepted as a lecturer of constitutional law at the University of Chicago, and teaching there for 12 years?  Does that count?  What about becoming US Senator, does that count?  I mean, would you count Sarah Palin's election to the office of Mayor of Wasilla as an accomplishment?  If so, then surely a seat in the US Senate is an accomplishment?

Um... nor was I claiming that he was.  I'm saying that law school and medical school are both very difficult affairs, not "do you want fries with that" sort of deals.  I have had many friends, who I hold in great esteem, go through both, and it was no picnic.

I think this bit needs to be more coherent before I can respond to it.  How exactly is Obama "showing he did not learn anything"?

FYI, it was NASCAR's own recommendation to people to properly inflate their tires that prompted Obama's comment about proper tire inflation.  The fact that the right-wing media ran with it is a whole 'nother story.

Actually, this is a fairly offensive charge to me, because I am always open to considering new facts and forming new analyses as a result of them.  My personal views on politics have changed very much over time and are always evolving as I learn new things and gain new insights.  I actually grew up in the Appalachian south and was a pretty staunch conservative until, well, I went to college and read more books.  My parents fled communist China when I was young and we immigrated here under political asylum, so any claims that I advocate a "big brother" socialist government are pretty laughable.

I understand that you are done with this conversation, but I'm very curious as to what specifically in my writings thus far has convinced you that my outlook is set in stone.

Jill, I appreciate that your time is precious and I thank you for your time.  (I know how much work a single dog is, I can't imagine what 3 kids is like.)  Unfortunately it seems to be that you have bought into the right-wing framing of Democrats as wanting Government to be the ultimate Boss of Everything, and so I suspect you are right that we won't come to a consensus in a reasonable amount of time.

As a parting message, I would encourage you to question if that framing really is true.  That is how I ultimately broke out of my "staunch conservative" days - I realized that all these scary things I'd been told about liberals and Democrats were mostly hyperbole, and in fact some where outright lies.  (For instance, you'd be surprise how many corporations actually *request* government regulation for liability purposes and to establish torts.)  There are no simple truths in politics and no silver bullet for all of our problems, but believing an entire class of Americans to be wholy deluded, wholy misled, or wholy evil is certainly not a path to any solution.

I'm all for conservation but not forced.  If I can afford to pay my heating bills and the price of gas, afford to buy the food I want, then I should be able to consume as I like. 

He very literally has.

 

not dictated it

You say this but say that I have "bought into" something.  I understand from what you've told me that you were once misguided as I am and now you have been enlightened.  If only I would open my mind and educate myself I would see things as you do.  (I now have a glass of wine in me and am feeling sassy).

He doesn't have the power to...yet.