Brad Wardell's views about technology, politics, religion, world affairs, and all sorts of politically incorrect topics.
Published on July 13, 2010 By Draginol In Elemental Dev Journals

At heart, I’m a modder. So part of me really hates shipping games. I prefer them to stay in beta. Forever. But eventually, products have to be shipped and judged based on their state when they’re shipped.

As a modder, the ship date is irrelevant. As a capitalist, I need the game to be good enough to get sufficiently positive buzz to generate the sales to continue my modding.

Ostensibly, my main coding job on Elemental is supposed to just be AI. But that’s because all our previous games weren’t very moddable.

With Elemental, the world is very moddable.  For instance, tactical battles have a lot of modding opportunities I’ve made use of.

Example: I made a quest today where your group is attacked in a huge temple.  Well, the quest xml lets me specify a map. So I made a series of tiles with the tile editor and then a map that used those tiles to create a temple where my guys were attacked by a bunch of Crypt Warriors. I could even name the individual monsters in the room (I named one Dennis, sorry, I can’t help myself).

But the idea of being able to load up a dungeon within the game from XML is the kind of fun I haven’t had since playing with Never Winter Nights.  Which, I admit, Elemental feels a lot like to me at times in terms of tools.

The evil capitalist in me isn’t totally happy about the modding. As I go through the assets available to modders, I see where the budget has gone.   There are so many assets (artwork, models, etc.) that will never see the light of day in the main game but available for modders that it’s a bit…well upsetting. 

I’m at home right now or I’d show you a bunch of a screenshots of the crazy amounts of stuff.

The team also worked out how uploading would work from within the game so you can share your creations seamlessly with others.  It’ll all be in game. But you don’t have to use our system. People can still set up their own sites for mods if they want.

Beta 3-B should really be called Beta 4 I hate to say it. It’s the most significant set of changes to the game rules since Beta 1. 

Your suggestions do get recorded and looked at. It doesn’t necessarily get implemented immediately but they do get looked at and if we like them, we’re not afraid of radical changes as Beta 3B will make clear. There will be riots I’m sure but it’s so much more fun.

Working at Stardock isn’t for the faint of heart. I have no qualms about making radical direction changes if I don’t like how things are going.  I was finding Beta 3A boring. And I don’t think I was alone in that thought.

The problem with making games is that we tend to always want to look at how others did it and repeat the flaws made in the past.  

Nowadays, it’s very very rare to see a new AAA PC-title that isn’t a sequel. So we have an opportunity to take a fresh look at things.

Thank goodness for the beta community and their constructive ideas.  If you’ve ever had a negative view of Internet forums, I recommend joining our community and reading through the work of our community here. It’s amazing. 


Comments (Page 4)
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on Jul 14, 2010

Raven X

Quoting Wintersong, reply 30
Even if you do a mod based on your own IP (and with your own art assets and such), does Elemental EULA allow you to sell your mod? I'm not planning on that but your comment made me curious. At best I'd expect Premium Modules or something like that.

Oh, dear Stardock: ancient Greece equipment/buildings, please. I have always wanted some hoplites and that "classical" feeling of the greek temples/cities. (some Roman touch is good too)

I'm not planning on selling my Mod at all, period. It's a totally free "Fan Work". My personal tribute to the books and characters I grew up loving. My reply was to the person who brought up selling Mods.

As for Roman things. Once we can import models and make them work in Elemental, there are Plenty of games out there that you could "borrow" units and units designs from. That way all you have to do is convert them over to work in the Elemental Engine. As far as I know doing such is perfectly Legal as long as your work is a "Fan Work" and distributed for Free. Once you start charging players for it you enter the realms of IP infringement and then copyright holders start wanting their share of the proceeds. Of course you could also say "All Proceeds go to Charity". Something like the "Buy Wintersong a New PC Charity"

 

I don't believe you're allowed to actually take models from other games and put them into your mods. They might not come after you if you're not selling it but they're probably well within their rights to do so.

on Jul 14, 2010

Wintersong

Oh, dear Stardock: ancient Greece equipment/buildings, please. I have always wanted some hoplites and that "classical" feeling of the greek temples/cities. (some Roman touch is good too)

Hell yeah!

 

on Jul 14, 2010

Slainangel52

As for Roman things. Once we can import models and make them work in Elemental, there are Plenty of games out there that you could "borrow" units and units designs from. That way all you have to do is convert them over to work in the Elemental Engine. As far as I know doing such is perfectly Legal as long as your work is a "Fan Work" and distributed for Free. Once you start charging players for it you enter the realms of IP infringement and then copyright holders start wanting their share of the proceeds. Of course you could also say "All Proceeds go to Charity". Something like the "Buy Wintersong a New PC Charity"
 

I don't believe you're allowed to actually take models from other games and put them into your mods. They might not come after you if you're not selling it but they're probably well within their rights to do so.

True. "Borrow" in this case would more accurately be called "commit a copyright violation."

Unless the assets were put out for public reuse, you can't take them and stick them into your own product. Doesn't matter if it's free or not.

on Jul 14, 2010

Tridus

True. "Borrow" in this case would more accurately be called "commit a copyright violation."

Unless the assets were put out for public reuse, you can't take them and stick them into your own product. Doesn't matter if it's free or not.

Well in the case of Grecian-Roman 'borrowing' as long you don't lift the textures and models, but instead just look at them for inspiration it is in no way a copyright violation.

Last I heard no one had a copyright on history.

on Jul 14, 2010

The exmple impresses me.

 

Being able to use secondary maps will add a lot to the RPG element of the game.

Also, it's an incentive to exploration. If all ruins, dungeons, etc were just a tile in the map that poped up a dialogue or combat, it would become boring faster than the possibility that reaching it could "teleport" us to another map to explore and make combat (as if that map was a zoomed in version of the event tile in the main map).

 

Just a question: is it only possible to use other maps just for the tactical combat, or can we make an area to be explored?

on Jul 14, 2010

VermillionChaos

Well in the case of Grecian-Roman 'borrowing' as long you don't lift the textures and models, but instead just look at them for inspiration it is in no way a copyright violation.

Last I heard no one had a copyright on history.

Raven was talking about taking specific unit designs and "borrowing" them, converting them to work in Elemental, and distributing them. That isn't allowed. He even admitted as much when he pointed out that it'd be wrong if he was charging for it, but mistakenly believes it's okay if he's not charging for it.

If you're using something as inspiration to create your own artwork, that's of course perfectly fine. There's a real difference between creating art based on Roman soldiers, and ripping the unit art out of Rome: Total War.

on Jul 14, 2010

Annatar11
Modding does not bring in short term sales, nor a very large portion of sales overall. Modding is good for game longevity, and once some high-profile/high-quality mods come out some more people may pick up Elemental from the bargain bin (or wait for an Impulse sale), but the vast majority of the full-price sales will have to come from the game built from those tools on release. The majority of people aren't modders, and don't play mods. These people are not going to spend $50 on a modding platform.

Elemental has to be a good *game* first, so it can sell and live long enough for the total conversions and all that to get developed and come out to keep it going. So, modding isn't going to move units up-front. It'll just help make the game live longer and get a little boost to trailing sales, if it's good enough to begin with.

Modding can help sales quite a lot for expansions though, due to the longevity thing. If people are still playing the game and still enjoying mods, you've got a larger audience for an expansion then you do if those people all got bored and moved on.

But you're right that the game itself has to be good enough to get people interested in modding it or playing mods. Early sales are based entirely on the game on release day, not what it might get modded into six months later.

on Jul 14, 2010

Quote:

"The evil capitalist in me isn’t totally happy about the modding. As I go through the assets available to modders, I see where the budget has gone.   There are so many assets (artwork, models, etc.) that will never see the light of day in the main game but available for modders that it’s a bit…well upsetting"

Sorry,

first time poster for this forum, Frogboy, are you saying here we will NOT get the full game, {as in the modding part tools of  the game?} only the  game?!  Basic question...  I was thinking that it was an integral PART of the game.  Please Advise Me...

 

 

on Jul 14, 2010

archimage
Quote:

"The evil capitalist in me isn’t totally happy about the modding. As I go through the assets available to modders, I see where the budget has gone.   There are so many assets (artwork, models, etc.) that will never see the light of day in the main game but available for modders that it’s a bit…well upsetting"

Sorry,

first time poster for this forum, Frogboy, are you saying here we will NOT get the full game, {as in the modding part tools of  the game?} only the  game?!  Basic question...  I was thinking that it was an integral PART of the game.  Please Advise Me...

 

 

No, by "main game" he means the campaign(s) that comes with it. There will be a lot of assets that they won't use but will be available for modders.

 

on Jul 14, 2010

archimage
Quote:

"The evil capitalist in me isn’t totally happy about the modding. As I go through the assets available to modders, I see where the budget has gone.   There are so many assets (artwork, models, etc.) that will never see the light of day in the main game but available for modders that it’s a bit…well upsetting"

Sorry,

first time poster for this forum, Frogboy, are you saying here we will NOT get the full game, {as in the modding part tools of  the game?} only the  game?!  Basic question...  I was thinking that it was an integral PART of the game.  Please Advise Me...

 

 

 

I believe he means that there will be, eg, a model for a five-headed dragon-dolphin of doom but it won't appear in a game unless you do a bit of modding and add in the appropriate xml values and stuff for the stats/appearance/etc of Percy the five-headed dragon-dophin of doom.

on Jul 14, 2010

i loved neverwinter (even the sequel). the mods i made probably touched more people than anything else i will ever hope to do with my life, but i honestly don't see anyone rushing off to emulate the format. i love modding, but i don't believe it pays and we need to accept that.

 

*loads up toolset*

on Jul 14, 2010

A map from within a map???? Holy moly that's what we've all been talking about with the multiple maps! How big can this map be????? can it be another plane? another planet? More details please!

on Jul 14, 2010

Modding can help sales quite a lot for expansions though, due to the longevity thing. If people are still playing the game and still enjoying mods, you've got a larger audience for an expansion then you do if those people all got bored and moved on.

In general, yes, and that's a good point. It also depends on how many expansions SD has planned.. right now we only know of one for February, and that's not enough time for any really big mod to get developed and released. There will be many "rebalance", "quest pack", "spell pack", "tile pack", etc mods, and those could help keep the game going a little bit as well.

Assuming we'll get the same scripting access that will let us create campaigns, that will also require less work compared to a TC that will need a lot of custom art assets and should help a bit.

This is kind of on the sidelines to the original sentiment that people buy the game because they want to play a mod for it, though.

on Jul 14, 2010

beta 3b is gonna be the best thing since cinnabon rolls and a microwave

wish there was an easier way to gather mana crystals

on Jul 14, 2010

cephalo
A map from within a map???? Holy moly that's what we've all been talking about with the multiple maps! How big can this map be????? can it be another plane? another planet? More details please!

It's not quite that. As far as I can tell he made a custom battle map and attached it to the temple on the main map. So your map within a map is strictly battle maps and probably contain the same limitations in size a typical battle map would have.

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