Dradinol, any country that has WMDs is a potential threat given the right situation. Granted Iran and Nth Korea are definite threats, however it only takes the wrong weapons in the wrong hans to make other owners of such weapons fit the same bill. Given the fact that the middle east is not the most stable area on earth, it is concievable that given the right pressures Israel could feel compeled to use its not insignificent arsnel of weapons against another middle eastern state. The threat from Israel is not because they are a hostile nation, rather a nation of people who exist in avery hostile region.
Don't get me wrong I fully suport the efforts of GW and the US and its allies to contain and/or remove these threats, however the fact still remains if you have the capability , you may just feel the need to use it. The major difference to rogue states is that at the moment Israel has a level headed Leader, all it would take is a far more fundamentalist force in power then you have fundamentalist meets fundamentalist. Not a good mix.

Styrkar, I just have to say I am totally aghast by your comment that since you are German you probably know more about WWII than Draginol. What the?! Judging from the amount of opinion vs fact in your comment, I highly doubt that surmission. I am a direct descendent of the settlers of my home town but would never say that that makes me know more about the town than anyone else. Some people eat, sleep and breathe WWII. Also, Draginol was asking Europeans the question "Is Israel the biggest threat to world peace?" Maybe he is just asking to see what Europeans think about that.

You might have a point Andrew J. Brehm, about Isreal actually just takingover land that it was originally given to it.

I will look that up more thoroughly.

LOL, I always love the "If you disagree with my opinion it is only because you are uneducated."

Styrkar, why should I bother putting forth my time to respond to you when you insist on insulting my intelligence? It is the tactic used by the weak minded as an alternative to actually putting forth a cohesive argument.

Jilluser:
I said probably since I dont know Dragi. He might know more about WWII then I do, if he has a special interest in it but I doubt it. Maybe he knows more about the part America took in the war but since I dont know him I cant really tell.
The fact that I am german does make it very likely that I know more about WWII then the average american. Not because I am smarter, simply because WWII is a very large part of my nations recent history, thus it takes up a very large part of the history lessons we got in school. Just as most americans will know more about the american history then I do or that you actually do know a lot more about your home town then I do. Heck I dont even know the name and unless its a very big city I doubt I know in which state it is or that I could point it out on a map.
Its just logically to assume that the closer you are to something the more you know about it, with some exeptions of course, thus the probably.
Dragi wasnt asking the europeans a question to see what we think about it. He was accusing the europeans to be anti-semitic and racists. And he was giving a very biased and false view of the Situation in Palestinia.
And when I read some bul**** like that I am not inclined to give a calm polite answer to it.
Imagine that I want to know what you think of George Bush (I am assuming that your american based on your articles, forgive me if I am mistaken).
I could ask what do you think of George Bush? And state some well researched facts about the things he did as president.
Or I could write a flaming, unfair, illinformed text about the stupid americans that managed to elect a idiotic president, who got the minority of votes, and led the country into a war that led the poor innocent people of iraq into suffering.
The first would be a fair question, the second would just be a unfair, hatefilled article that would only further prejudice just like the thing Dragi wrote.



You got to be kidding. You cant be serious and use all the crimes other nations commited in the past to justify that the palestinians are driven from their land? That people in the US are now living together peacefully doesnt mean that driving the native americans from their land by force was the right thing to do.

And since you were asking.
Israel was allotted 55% of the land (Palestine) by the 1947 partition plan, an additional 23% was captured in the 1948 war and now the remaining 22%, across the “Green Line” (the pre-1967 armistice line), was also captured.
So much for it has not expanded.

Well Draginol, I never said that you were uneducated. I simply said that I probably know more about WWII then you and I did it due to the reasons stated in the previous post.
That was also a very little part in my argument.
I did say that you were ill informed and and biased in your oppinion and I did give several statements to back it up. I admit that I havent been too polite in the reply I wrote, but I dont think that you deserve politeness after unfairly insulting me and pretty much every european as paranoic and racists.

ok... you answer to yourselves quite clearly.

1st: Israel has expanded over the land of the Palestinians. I am sorry friends but i've just checked a 1947 American Atlas and the region it says Palestine. Just Palestine. I suppose Palestine is the land of the palestinians, there is nothing about Israel on it. (do you want that i scan it?)
2nd: Size doesn't matter for being or not being a threat. Tiny countries can be powerful and relevant.
3rd: I wouldn't speak if i were not sure of what i said, and that's more than most of you can say. I've read and researched intensively about Israel and Palestine. I am a doctor in Political Science and i studied in Brighton (UK) Madrid (SP) Krakow (PL) and been working with Ngo's for 10 years on human rights projects all around the world. Yes i worked with jewish communities in Eastern Europe too. And not all jewish people is pro-israel, i must say (would you say that's common sense or are they racist too?) Besides, i have jewish and palestinian good friends.
4th: I never said that i agree with the Palestinian rulers. I agree with the palestinian people and claims towards their homeland. It is, at least, a claim as legitimate as the jewish.
5th: Yes i still hold my opinion that the american point of view on geo-strategy and politics is scary, threatening, unsupported by the majority of the world and, moreover, based on childish assesments. That's why they've made so many mistakes in history (that's why, sometimes, they made some great achievements, too). You have a good thing: you dare to do what other people don't. You have a bad thing: sometimes what you do it's wrong.
6th: Palestinian "terrorists" have blown themselves up in Military controls, thrown grenades to Israeli Military/Police bases...
7th: Israel is also using non-military tactics such as the "peaceful" invasion by colonists. How can you fight against then, who are invaders, acting like soldiers, if you don't have an army? What is the Kibbutz? Isn't it a camp where they do military training too? Aren't this people also trained, when not to hate, to INVADE!!??
8th: Israel has violated more UN resolutions than ANY OTHER country in the world. Still waiting for you to realize.
9th: It's horrifying that some of you said that there is no problem in living behind a wall. Yeah, no big issue, so i hope one day they construct a wall all around the US and you are forced to stay there to feel how it's like. Oh, but wait, now everybody has to put their fingerprints down for the police when travelling to the US, so in a way you are behind a wall already. or maybe the rest of the world is behind it and you think you are free, then...well...whatever, walls just make the world better, no?
10th: Palestinians are living in dirty refugee camps in the hills just because they love it, right? Ok, then, i thought they'd rather live in a decent house in a palestinian city but hey, i was wrong, the palestinian dream is getting their own personal camping tent and living in the most arid place possible, specially if it's infested by rats. Please THINK before speaking...
11th: For "deathmate": I can see that you are raised too full of prejudices and hatred against the palestinians. Just look at what you say!!
12th: In democracy all persons sayings are worth the same, and they can participate in the decisions, for good or bad. In the US democracy seems the right to shut up, swallow, and let others decide...but what if you want to change the system? if you want to fight against what you think it's wrong, or unethical? You are left out of "society" and marginalized. Everything has to be "politically correct". Here we have a little more "active" and open point of view on democracy, after all we created it more than 2000 years ago, and we've had our share of dictatorships too. How many of you VOTED in the last elections? In my country 2 weeks ago 70%. Uh...so don't give lessons to anybody about democracy because there is a small chance that you still have to learn a little about it.

Ooh boy, whatever buddy.

I looked at a map of the world and it says "Europe". So France is clearly taking land away from Europe... But yea, you can really tell you've amassed great knowledge on these issues. I mean with a degree in political science and everything. Like most "experts" you've identified that size/population have nothing to do with world threat right? Luxemberg vs. Soviet Union in the 1960s? Could go either way right?

Strykar: If you ever visited my home you would realize how ridiculous your claim about World War II is (hint: several bookshelves on the subject but a ton of artifacts, WW2 history is my hobby). Suffice to say, my knowledge on World War II is pretty solid.

Draginol, since WWII is your hobby you might know more about it then I do.
So since you insist on talking about that little misconseption I made instead of the actual topic (you know, Israel, Palestinia, who is to blame and the role of europe ...) I would like to know why you made this statement:
An extermination, I might add, that wouldn't have been possible without a wide spread level of cooperation through-out continental Europe (i.e. don't just blame the Germans).
I honestly want to know, since I think that germany, well the NSDAP let by A. Hitler, used the Jews as scapegoats to put the blame for the bad economical situation on and in the end used the SS to get the Jews into concentration camps, use them as a workforce and killing them.
I simply dont see the widespread cooperation throughout Europe the Nazis had to do that. Unless of course you count the countries germany occupied and basicly ruled during that period. But I dont think that you can for example blame France or other countries for the crimes the Nazis commited on their grounds.

Let me get this straight - you think that the Nazi's alone were responsible for the deaths of 6 million jews? That when they marched into say France or Poland that they just "knew", kind of like a spider sense or something, where all the jews lived?

The number of jews murdered during World War II varied from country to country largely based on the amount of CIVILIAN cooperation the Nazi's received in rounding them up.

But yes, you CAN blame France's population for cooperating in the deportation of jews. Frankly, I wasn't aware that anyone seroiusly disputed this anymore. I find it scary that there's still people out there pretending that it was only a tiny group of people who did in 6 million jews. The boogeyman Nazi's did it all and everyone else was just an innocent victim. Please.

This is exactly the type of stuff that makes Americans think many Europeans are anti-semetic. When confronted with their past they deny deny deny.

That would be like Americans saying "Well, it wasn't the settlers fault for the harm that American indians had. It was the US calvalry that did that stuff..." Hell, Americans (As a whole) still carry a lot of guilt over black slavery and that was something that was only practiced by a TINY number (smaller as a percent than the percentage of Germans who were members of the Nazi party) of Americans. And was eliminated not by outside force but through a civil war in which hundreds of thousands of Americans died.

Maybe we Americans just have too high of standards. We're a nation that believes in taking responsibility. Maybe that's why this middle east issue is so divisive. We Americans tend to see the Palestinians as being largely responsible for their own problems. While some Europeans seem to insist on blaming not Jordan or Syria but Israel.

For example, you don't hear about Europeans arguing that the Kurds should have their own state even though they have a much stronger case. Why is that?

Styrkar,

I would ask you to NOT make up statements and attribute them to me. Even though you quoted me correctly, you only pretend to summarize it correctly. I did NOT use any crimes of other nations to justify anything, and neither have I said anything even close to that. I merely said that 300 million people living in a democracy is not much worse than 6 million people living in the same area. This has NOTHING to do with any crimes of any nation justifying anything at all. So please refrain from restating what I said and play fair. I am only going to ask you for this once.

And since I was asking about that expansion theory, you should have read the maps you found, not just look at them. If you do some calculating, you will find that what is Israel today is almost exactly what it was then plus the Golan heights, as I said. But I see you have added the occupied territories to "Israel"... well, how shall we solve that?

If you look for further maps, you might find that today's occupied territories have been occupied ever since Transjordan annexed them. Of course Transjordan (since then "Jordan") then lost them to Israel. So if you look for a Palestinian state, ask Jordan regarding what happened to it. As for Israel's expansionism, might I ask where exactly it has expanded into? Do you consider controlling the occupied territories "expansion"? Because in that case you might want to ask Arabs not to attack Israel every few years. Or maybe there is simply a definition problem here. Poland was attacked by Germany and has since then kept a part of Germany. Has Poland expanded? (Or was it?)

So what do you propose? Should Israel give back the occupied territories to Jordan? Should it hand it over to the Palestinian dictatorship and allow them to launch attacks from there (once more)? Or would you maybe consider accepting the fact that since Israel hasn't actually expanded is really a "non-expanding" country?

So please, Styrkar, try to stick to the facts.

Pablo, compare the maps again. Use a current map and the one you found. Maybe print them on see-through paper. Compare. You will find that the current border between Israel and the occupied territories and other Arab lands is almost exactly the border it was then.

And I do not care whether you are a doctor of PS of whatever country. Unless what you say is true, it is of no value for me, even if you have Jewish and Palestinian friends. But I fail to the relevance of your telling me about your title? Do you actually believe that people can be convinced by authority rather than facts? Has it ever worked? Should it?

Also, I find it odd that a "doctor" of Political Science would not know that the first division plan for the region was made before WWII and considered the Jews living there (and Israel thus wasn't a "gift" made after WWII); and then there were your remarks about the Americans being younger than us... now what sense does that make? Do you actually believe that some chain of wisdom is interrupted when families travel over the atlantic? ("We have been Europe for the last 2.000 years, so i guess we have a little different evaluation about the world, the politics, the possible threats. We are used to it, you my american friends, are too young in the world.") Now what is that about? Do you actually believe that nonsense? Americans ARE Europeans, they have just relocated. That doesn't make them dumber or less educated, it just makes them, well, Americans (in the local sense). They have the same experience with the world that we have, except they have controlled more of it than we did for the last 50 years. So what is it with your remark about them being "too young"?

And what exactly is the Palestinian people's claim towards a homeland? Why can they not live elsewhere in the Arab world. The Arabs have expelled more Jews (and kept their property) than there originally were Palestinians west of the Jordan. Why could the Palestinians not take their place and live among their Arab "brothers". And why is it acceptable for Arabs to expel Jews but such a crime for Jews to defend themselves against Arab atrocities? A doctor of PS would certainly know, wouldn't he?

5th: The majority of the world live in dictatorships and are uneducated. Why should we care about the opinions of a tyrant and his uneducated people? They are usually against democracy. So what?

6th: Specificae?

7th: A kibbutz is not a military training camp.

8th: Why should I care about the UN? The Arabs have many votes and are usually supported by all the other dictatorships in the world. How does that make a UN resolution a moral statement? Why would it be wrong to violate it? Also, I assume that a doctor of PS would know the difference between a UN resolution and a statement of the general assembly? Which resolution was violated, btw? Examples?

9th: I live in West Berlin. I grew up in West Berlin. I know about living behind a wall. It is not horrible. It's not the best solution and West Berlin was not really a problem to the lives of those around it, but Palestine is and a wall might just work. We can tear it down when the Arabs have decided to stop killing people at random.

10th: Palestinians live in refugee camps because their Arab brothers did not want them to live anywhere else. They could let them in. But they don't want to. You seem to believe that for some physical reason Palestinians cannot exist anywhere outside Israel. It is not true. Please think before YOU speak. Or at least notice that I didn't even say anything about such camps.

12th: No, not everybody's sayings are worth the same. Some people are simply wrong. What you are refering to are votes, not value. The statement "We don't need aircraft, we can use flying bricks" carries as much eight in elections as any other, but that doesn't make it as valuable as "better use aircraft". You can look up the voter percentages in the last elections in Berlin yourself, if you like.

Pablo,

1. So there were no Jews living there before 1947?
2. Relevant yes, powerful no.
3. Good for you, but why should we care?
4. The Palestinians HAVE their own country and the "government" of that country is directing attacks against Israel in an effort to take over Israeli land.
5. So you're scared because the US doesn't just sit on their hands instead of trying to make things better. I prefer trying to make the world a better place.
6. So it's ok for the Palestinians to unilaterally decide to attack other countries?
7. You're upset that the Israelis are building houses to live in? Would you prefer that they were homeless?
8. The relevancy of the UN has been discussed here before and I'm not going to rehash that argument now.
9. I don't have a clue of what point you're trying to make here.
10. The Palestinians are living in refuge camps because their own government cares more about hating Israel then taking care of their own people. There is no shortage of aid for the Palestinians but the majority of it goes to fund terrorist efforts.
11. If Palestinians had killed your friends and neighbors you might hate them too.
12. All voices are not worth the same. Should everyone listen to what the Nazis or the KKK have to say? Is the "active and open" view of democracy the reason European countries restrict political speech?

Btw the US in the oldest continuously operating government in the world. It's all of you other countries that are young and inexperienced.

ignorance makes the heart go yonder

young in the sense that you have no respect for the other, and believe that you are the best. we are more sceptic. please read what you say, most of your comments are reflected in the text, and most of them are caused by ignorance, since i won't enter the game because i stated on the text what i know it's a legitimate cause. i cannot go to make a house in, let's say, usa, because that's not my country. so why do israelis do that? and yes, i compared the maps. i only stated my knowledge because i was questioned about it, and yes i think before i say something. i see most of you have a serious lack of education. and for the german friend...i can see in you the consequences of living behind a wall. and please stop with all those classical "anti-semitic" topics because Palestinian are semitic too. period.

i would like to know how many victims are from palestinian suicides, and when did the suicide bombings begun.