Brad Wardell's views about technology, politics, religion, world affairs, and all sorts of politically incorrect topics.
The unethical concept of income redistribution
Published on July 4, 2004 By Draginol In Politics

Most people pay hardly any taxes to the federal government. In fact, half the adult population (50%) only pays around 4% of the total federal tax burden. The other half pays the other 96%. Sadly, most of those taxes are poorly used.  The works of government that affect you on a day to day basis are handled by the state. My state income taxes (here in Michigan) is a flat 4% of income (not counting sales tax and property taxes).

Here's a chart of what you pay on a state by state basis: http://www.taxadmin.org/fta/rate/ind_inc.html

Federal Taxes are excessive

It is important to differentiate the state from the federal government. Most politicians running for the senate or house of representatives (or President) count on Americans being ignorant of who pays for what.  So here's the truth:  The basic services that most Americans consider the job of the government:  police, roads, schools, fire departments, etc. are handled by state or local governments -- not the federal government.  Remember that next time some politician tries to talk about how we need higher federal taxes in order to pay for "better" education.

For married people (which I am) the federal tax rate looks like this:

  Taxable Income

 

  Tax

Up to $12,000

 

10% of the taxable income

$12,000 to $46,700

 

$1,200 plus 15% of the excess over $12,000

$46,700 to $112,850

 

$6,405 plus 27% of the excess over $46,700

$112,850 to $171,950

 

$24,265.50 plus 30% of the excess over $112,850

$171,950 to $307,050

 

$41,995.50 plus 35% of the excess over $171,950

Over $307,050

 

$89,280.50 plus 38.6% of the excess over $307,050

So let's say you're a married couple, household income of $50,000. You're going to be paying up to $6,900 in taxes. Of course, that assumes you have no deductions. Throw in some kids and other deductions and that $6,900 largely disappears.

Let's say, however, you make $350,000. That's 7 times as much in income.  I think most people would consider it fair that they pay 7 times as much in taxes right? Of course, how many people think that they should pay 7 times as much for their phone? Or their cable bill? Or electricity? Probably not as many. Yet, does this family get any additional federal services? No. But guess what? They don't pay 7 times as much in taxes for making 7 times as much in income. No, they pay 14 times as much in taxes! That's right, on $350,000 of income they'd pay $96,000 in federal taxes.

Now, some people will say "Yea, but those rich people have all kinds of deductions." No, they don't. And as we shall see later, for all the claims of "the rich" finding "loopholes", they sure aren't doing a good job because people who make $350,000 or more are paying nearly all the federal taxes.

Federal Taxes: Not much bang for the buck

But you might say, "Well, the federal government doe a lot of things that helps everyone and the wealthy should pay more, after all, they can afford it." In fact, let's say you take the view Calor does. That the wealthy benefit disproportionately from the infrastructure of the United States and therefore should pay disproportionately.  The argument goes:  If Bill Gates was born in Somalia he'd be just another starveling. What makes Bill Gates Bill Gates is that he happened to be born in the United States where an educated work force, a strong and uncorrupted judicial and legal system protects businesses, and a good transportation and logistical system helps make it possible to bring products to market in over an entire continent.

Okay, let's say we accept that premise. That roads, education, a society that is based on rule of law, okay, let's go with that.  Unfortunately, that's not where your federal tax dollars go. They don't go to helping create a good criminal justice system or better roads or researching new technologies. No, they mostly go from you to some other individual. Here's a pie chart of where your tax dollars go.

Look closely at this.  Specifically: Social Security + Medicaid + Welfare + Medicare = > 50% of the federal spending.  Half of that federal taxes go from you to go to someone else.  All arguments over social justice and compassion aside, how exactly do these programs create opportunity? What exactly is the justification for spending money on these things from a governmental point of view? People like Michael Moore and Al Franken argue that those people buy things which in turn helps the economy and that "rich" people just waste it on fancy food and foreign cars. There's a technical term for people like Michael Moore and Al Franken, we call them "Dumb people". In the real world, most people who generate wealth do so because they are effective at utilizing capital. Blowing a significant portion of your capital on luxury items is not very effective. What these people do is take that capital and invest into things that will generate even more wealth which helps everyone.  I am not suggesting that taxes are universally bad. I am saying that income redistribution is bad because it is a less efficient use of capital. I certainly favor state programs that ensure that our citizens aren't starving or freezing out in the streets. But that's not where this money is going. In fact, programs that help ensure poor Americans don't go hungry are handled by (wait for it) THE STATES.

The original point of having the federal government was to "provide for a common defense, promote (not provide) the general welfare". Those things only use up a small percentage of the budget.  15% on defense, 2% on veterans benefits, 3% on natural resources, 3% on education and 8% on Misc.  Now, that 8% isn't all good stuff. That's where pork barrel programs fall into. You always hear about "corporate welfare". Well, that would fall into there somewhere.  But now you can see what a dishonest charge that is. It's hard to take people who cry "corporate welfare" seriously when that entire part of the budget falls under "Misc." and is only 8% while over half the budget is spent on real live welfare.

Even if you're one of the people who believe Social Security and Medicare are things "we pay into and thus should get something out", that still leaves 15% (Welfare and Medicaid) that are just pure give-aways.  Or put another way, it's charity. Which is ironic because the people who are most militant about increasing welfare are the same people who seem to detest the primary providers of charity historically - religious organizations. Rather than allow concerned volunteers to help their fellow man, we instead pay far away bureaucrats to administer money confiscated from the citizenry. But I digress.

Kleptocracy

The problem with income redistribution is that it opens a Pandora's box that can never be closed. Once you have convinced society of the need to take money from "the rich" to give to others you slide down a slippery slope.  Over time,  power of "democracy" comes in and the majority vote in leaders who increasingly take from the economic producers of society to hand over to everyone else. We already see that today:

This data is from: http://www.taxfoundation.org/prtopincometable.html

Total Income Tax Shares (percentage of federal income tax collections paid by each group)

Total

Top 1%

Top 5%

Top 10%

Top 25%

Top 50%

1980 100.00% 19.05% 36.84% 49.28% 73.02% 92.95%
1981 100.00% 17.58% 35.06% 47.96% 72.29% 92.55%
1982 100.00% 19.03% 36.13% 48.59% 72.50% 92.65%
1983 100.00% 20.32% 37.26% 49.71% 73.10% 92.83%
1984 100.00% 21.12% 37.98% 50.56% 73.49% 92.65%
1985 100.00% 21.81% 38.78% 51.46% 74.06% 92.83%
1986 100.00% 25.75% 42.57% 54.69% 76.02% 93.54%
1987 100.00% 24.81% 43.26% 55.61% 76.92% 93.93%
1988 100.00% 27.58% 45.62% 57.28% 77.84% 94.28%
1989 100.00% 25.24% 43.94% 55.78% 77.22% 94.17%
1990 100.00% 25.13% 43.64% 55.36% 77.02% 94.19%
1991 100.00% 24.82% 43.38% 55.82% 77.29% 94.52%
1992 100.00% 27.54% 45.88% 58.01% 78.48% 94.94%
1993 100.00% 29.01% 47.36% 59.24% 79.27% 95.19%
1994 100.00% 28.86% 47.52% 59.45% 79.55% 95.23%
1995 100.00% 30.26% 48.91% 60.75% 80.36% 95.39%
1996 100.00% 32.31% 50.97% 62.51% 81.32% 95.68%
1997 100.00% 33.17% 51.87% 63.20% 81.67% 95.72%
1998 100.00% 34.75% 53.84% 65.04% 82.69% 95.79%
1999 100.00% 36.18% 55.45% 66.45% 83.54% 96.00%
2000 100.00% 37.42% 56.47% 67.33% 84.01% 96.09%
2001 100.00% 33.89% 53.25% 64.89% 82.90% 96.03%

Take a close look at the bottom row. 

The top 1% of income earners in the United States already pay 34% of the federal taxes. The top 5% pay over half the taxes. Think about what that means once you have convinced society that it is ethical to confiscate money from one person to give to another.  We're not talking about taxes used to provide education to Americans. Or taxes being used to have a better police force. Or taxes to protect us from foreign enemies.  We are talking about taxes taken from one family to be given to another.  We are also not talking about taxes being used to feed starving people either. Instead, most of this money is now being used to either provide a life style that resembles "middle class" (without having earned it) or is used to provide health services.  Because now, health care is considered a "right".  In 1933, living to 65 was very unusual. Now, apparently, living to 80 is considered a right that should be guaranteed by the government or more to the point, guaranteed by the top 5% of income earners.

That is why so many conservatives abhor income redistribution. It has no end in sight. When 25% of the population pays 83% of the taxes, it becomes incredibly tempting for the other 75% of the population to just continually vote in new entitlements.  Today we debate whether prescription drugs should be provided for by the "government". I imagine a hundred years ago the idea of taxing people to give other people free medicine would have seemed absurd.  At the rate we're going it won't be long until the "government" is required to provide every adult with either a free automobile or annual vacation allowance. Or more to the point, that the 75% of the population that pays only a tiny share of the taxes votes in politicians who promise that the "wealthy will pay their fair share and provide them with free cars and free vacations!".

The usual counter argument is that the rich are "greedy". But who's really being greedy? Every demographic study of "the rich" show that they, on average, work longer hours and take greater risks than the rest of us. Moreover, statistically, those who oppose the welfare state are not much more likely to be rich than those who favor it.  It is an issue of principle, not greed. It is not the federal government's job to decide for us what an acceptable economic living standard is.  Besides that, it seems to me that those who demand free money are the ones who are being greedy --not the ones who are having to pay it.  You can almost imagine the politician saying "These greedy rich folks in their fancy houses and fancy cars think that the rest of us aren't entitled to have a nice car or nice home or a nice vacation! Well they are wrong. It's time for these greedy people to start pulling their own weight and ensuring that the rest of us are entitled to a decent Disney vacation too!"

Honest discussions about taxes rarely happen because the politicians are always so clever about hiding the truth from the average person. You hear things like "A big tax cut for the wealthy!" or "Bush's rich friends got most of the tax cut."  Of course they did because any serious tax cut is going to go to people who...pay taxes. Saying things like "The top 1% are getting 33% of the tax cut!" is like saying "20% of sick days are on a Friday". It's just dishonest politics. 

Moreover, what about the people who call for federal tax increases for things like "more money for education". Huh? The states provide nearly all of the education dollars. The federal government only pays something like 10% of the bill for public schools. And talk about inefficient use of capital - send money to Washington to send it back to go across the street? Duh? When people talk about raising taxes, what they really mean is bringing in more money to pay to other people in the hopes of making them dependents so that they'll keep voting for them.

So next time you hear politicians debate about taxes, tax cuts, the debt, and "entitlements", remember these things: (1) Most federal taxes are simply pay offs to other families. (2) One percent of the population pays a third of those taxes already. (3) Beware of entitlements, in a democracy, the majority of people can vote in any entitlement. And when that majority only pays 4% of the total tax burden, such entitlements are not a matter of IF but rather of WHEN.


Comments (Page 2)
4 Pages1 2 3 4 
on Oct 28, 2003
I feel uncomfortable and would like to change the subject, and I'm not even sure if I am right or left

I, personally, don't like the fact that individually, neither I nor my husband would be in the tax bracket that we are, but since we are married, our combined income bumps us up. I think that the government shouldn't penalize married people by raising your tax bracket like that. I guess we could get divorced, I'll own the house and he can have full custody of the kid. I'm sure that we would pay less in taxes.
on Oct 28, 2003
oh great, the joys of discussing social security.


Reply By: Draginol
========================
In fact, if someone on the left wants to split hairs about honesty and not mentioning the payroll taxes then they should go the whole way: Demographically, most people in the top 5% of income earners are business owners. And those business owners not only get taxed more but have to pay for half the payroll taxes of their employees. In other words, far from making the liberal argument stronger, bringing in pay roll taxes only makes it worse.
========================


usa today sez:
==================
Four of five taxpayers now pay more in payroll taxes than income taxes. They don't necessarily realize it because half the payroll tax is paid by employers. That share of the tax falls on workers, too, in the form of reduced compensation, most economists agree.
==================

how can they say this? well, some crazy communist pinko hippie economist sez*: source:
========================
According to the government, payroll taxes for Social Security and Medicare are “paid equally by both employees and employers,” with each paying 7.65 percent.36 While that may be true for accounting purposes, economist Walter Williams explains how it really works:
[Y]ou probably already believe…that your employer pays half your Social Security. This lie may be demonstrated by pretending that you’re my boss. We agree to a wage of $7.00 an hour. You deduct 50 cents an hour as my Social Security contribution and add 50 cents as the “employer contribution,” ; making your cost to hire me $7.50 an hour. My question is: If it costs you $7.50 to hire me, what is my minimum hourly output for you to keep me on the job and stay in business? If you said $7.50 an hour, go to the head of the class, because you also know who pays all of the Social Security tax. The worker does.37*
========================

* source 37 : Walter Williams, “Medical Benefit Fact and Fiction,” Washington Times, Nov. 27, 1989, p. F3. i looked up the name "walter williams economist" and it turns out he's apparently a conservative writer (one example title result in google: "TownHall.com: Conservative Columnists: Walter Williams").


some website:
------------
According to the Social Security Administration, Social Security is a mixed or partially-funded system, with elements of both a pay-as-you-go and a fully-funded approach:

"Since 1983, the program has operated under a "partial reserve" method of funding. The intent is to have the system take in more than it pays out in order to build up the large reserve funds needed to help pay for the benefits of an increasing number of retired workers."
------------

could you elaborate on why whether social security is pay as you go is important?


Reply By: Draginol
===============
Re cherry picking:

Well for starters, you COULD pick a date that was PRIOR to the existence of the redistribution programs: Social security, medicaid, medicare. That would be a nice start.
===============

actually, i currently CAN'T because i couldn't find any data data/graphs/tables of gdp versus taxes going back before the great depression. social security was signed in the mid 1930s. medicare and medicaid was in the 60s. the income tax amendment was signed in 1913. the farthest i ever saw was 1929: the period of time guys were jumping out of skyscraper windows as their fortunes were being wiped out at the start of the great depression.

for the record, during the great depression, federal tax reciepts vs gdp was really really low. for some reason, economists, government officials, and private tax policy analyst places don't very often include taxes vs gdp going back to the 1900 in their data. if anyone can find the data they can post a link, along with any maps they include of europe with the ottoman and austro-hungarian empires...


Reply By: Draginol
=====================
BTW, if you look at page 6 of that report, the trend on taxes is pretty clear. The current economic down turn may be bringing us "respite" (so those "rich folks" aren't making as much money and hence not as much money to tax) but the tax trend is pretty obvious.
=====================

not so fast. while reading up on all this, i found out that tax income from capital gains tax is counted, but gdp doesn't include capital gains.

source:
==================
Moreover, measuring tax burdens as a percentage of GDP can be misleading, because GDP does not include capital gains income. The taxes paid on capital gains income are counted as part of total tax collections, but the capital gains income is not counted as part of GDP. In other words, the taxes are counted, but the income on which the taxes are paid is not. This means that when capital gains income and capital gains tax collections both rise sharply, as has occurred in recent years, tax burdens rise when measured as a percentage of GDP more rapidly than tax burdens are, in fact, increasing. With capital gains income now playing a major role in increasing federal revenues, this distortion in the measure of tax burdens as a percentage of GDP has taken on added importance.
==================

so during that nice big hump in '98-01, capital gains income was getting pumped up like a motherf--- but the gdp does not reflect that at all.

before i leave: how come the tax rates for the top brackets generally decrease over the years, even though the bottom 90% could have voted themselves free stuff any time?

more lies, damned lies, and statistics to come. don't all jump up and cheer at once.
on Oct 28, 2003
hey draginol,

i read in another comment portion you tweaked author scores a bit. did you do the same for blog sites too? i compulsively check my blog site rank and i used to be 7th or something earlier today and now i am getting beat down by a site whose last article was over 3 weeks ago.
on Oct 29, 2003
==========================
before the us' entry into wwii, the tax percent of gdp was in single digits. but something tells me that those years are gone forever given the vast changes to american society.
===========================

Vast changes such as the great society and the ever-increasing amount of social security payouts.

Prior to WWII wasn't most US tax income from tariffs?

Re: Solitair's system:

You do have a 0% tax band, retirees and non-workers. The brilliant part of the welfare spending is that it is a percentage instead of a fixed amount.
on Oct 29, 2003
Reply By: Madine
=================
Vast changes such as the great society and the ever-increasing amount of social security payouts.
=================

right. (although the great society was in the 60s) and other such minor events as the great depression, wwii, rural electification, the cold war, nuclear weapons, the rise of a large standing military, the fall of isolationism, entangling allianes, women in the workplace, the civil rights movement, vietnam, the rising use of computers, tv, interstate highways, the development of suburbs, the internet, and the rises and falls of communism and the agriculture, manufacturing, and information industries, and 9/11. those things did some mild changes to american society. otherwise, america in 1913 is about the same as america in 2003.

tax income
taxes as percent of gdp since 1929: i listed this above. on the graph it's kinda hard to see, but "other" makes up a fairly large chunk in '29 then goes up and down. "peaked in the mid-1940s and have been in a similar steady decline." according to them: "Other federal taxes as a percentage of GDP—including federal estate and gift taxes and customs duties".

at least i found out why draginol is so set on finding dates before 1935. only showed up on the comments page:



if img doesn't show up click here

on Oct 30, 2003
Madine,
my system doesn't have a 0% rating. It may have people who are not earning money and therefore not paying tax, but any money they do earn is taxed. The system is designed that the social welfare is also the pension, is also the child allowance, is also the tax credit. Very simple, but when you do the figures it actually works well. The precise tax rate, amount to be returned in social wefare, spending priorities, etc would all need to be tweaked depending on the wishes of the electorate. As everyone pays tax at the same level, there are no loopholes to exploit, no accounting tricks, no exemptions. A fair few accountants may be out of jobs though!

Paul.
on Oct 31, 2003
"Reply By: russellmz2 Posted: Tuesday, October 28, 2003

hey draginol,

i read in another comment portion you tweaked author scores a bit. did you do the same for blog sites too? i compulsively check my blog site rank and i used to be 7th or something earlier today and now i am getting beat down by a site whose last article was over 3 weeks ago."

Brad has *very* little to do with the coding of the site. If you look at your site stats (not yours, but your sites) you will see that there is a total number of points and points for the last 30 days. the site standings are based on the last 30 days. When they made that change, I reacted the same way because I went from 10th to 2nd, but it was all due to a code change. The site point system is still being tweaked for fairness, so you may see it shift again before it's finalized.

on Nov 01, 2003
ok, thanks for the info! happily, i am now just edging out the three weeks no update site
on Nov 05, 2003
Anthony you call that a tax, , some day when I am not so tired I will put in our tax rates for then you will see what tax is my friend, (no this is not a competition), in our fair country it is the middle income people who pay a majority of taxs, so in some ways I do understand what you are saying. Our top rate is 48.7% which kicks in at 60k, however with the Australian tax system, the more you earn the more deductions you get, people who are on average income don't get the tax breaks, however they get free education, health dental and the list goes on. Interestingly though when you compare they graph on expenditure 50% on social services is identical to what Australia spends Sadly much of these services go to people who do not need the services, eg. people on high income using free education and health services, this is where the costs go up.

Sadly people will always exploit these things , thus denying those how do need these services, and therefore costing more for the rest of us.
on Nov 05, 2003
You know what would solve this problem, wait for it, get rid of money , think about it do we really need money with the technologies we have today, no, it is a very outdated way of exchange. The reality is there is no reason to have this sought of system any more, and no I am not suggesting some form of communism, this is and always was a flawed concept based on forcing people to do the bidding of a small group how believed they new best. What I am saying is there are better ways to do things in a modern world, and yet we never even discuss these options, because of the blinkered view of the world in general or maybe its just that most areas of discussion that exist around this generally could only happen in the media, which is also owned by the wealthy few. Pushing it up hill with a pointy stick. Oh well it was a nice thought. I should say may countries, or at least communities do not use money as a form of exchange.
on Dec 31, 2003
Great article. I was looking for some info on what the tax rates were and how the $$ is spent. I have to say though that is sad that opinions on the tax issue are devided by economic lines. It is obvious that those who make $400K a year feel that they are paying too much while the person who makes $12K sees it just. I think there is a small element of greed on this. Yes we don't all get the same benefits. taxes are used to raise revenue. Just because a person who makes 12K gets benefits that the 400K person doesn't can not constitute injustice. In the end the law of the numbers apply just like on insurance. The more at risk you are the more you pay. In the case of taxes the more you make the more you pay. It seems only fair that someone struggling with $5.50 p/h gets benefited from the taxes that , I for instance pay ( $10,000 a year btw). Yes, I totally agree that the tax rate is excessive . I'd also like my tax money to be better managed ( bigger and stronger military, better access to healthcare for some, Education etc ..) but I think there is a "whine" factor involved here. You make 400K you are wealthy. You pay more ( 14 times I think is very excessive) but that means that you keep 271K . That is 245K more than the average Joe. Sorry..thats the price you pay and I'd love to be the guy who keeps 271K out of 400K and not 40K out of 50K. I m assuming part of what makes the US population more affluent than most of the countries is that distribution of wealth. Without it then 50% of the population wouldn't be able to afford the basic needs...Just an opinion. Please enlighten me if u disagree.

Thanks
on Jan 23, 2004
20/20 is on doing a show on myths and misconceptions.

One of the myths is that the rich don't pay much in taxes.

Reality check: The top 5% pay 53% of the taxes.

The bottom 95% of the population only pays 47% of federal taxes.
on Feb 06, 2004
I've tried following the logic and statistics posted on this site and realize the issues are important for understanding both the structure and the philosophical basis of taxation..... I will admit that the numbers and comparisons of % of GDP through time
are confusing to me. I am not an economist and have had a humble education. That being said I would like to comment on the philosophical side of the discussion with a real world illustration of how this unethical redistribution of wealth has affected my
family. A little background. I am Native American, my mother's father was fullblood Lakota but somehow not tracable to any Tribal
Roll. What that means is that even though it is apparent I and my family are Native American , I am not recognized as belonging to that Tribe, or any other. My maternal grandmother was Cherokee, but we can not trace that either. There are political underpinnings for how and why this occurs and is more common than most people think, but that is a different discussion. I mention this as I am sure everyone's ears perked up when I said I am Native. The point being is that I personally have NEVER received a dime or encountered an advatage (ie: preference in education or employment) for being Native. Wanted to get that out of the way, before everyones head exploded. Perhaps you wonder why I bring this up in the first place, what is the relevance? It is a partial basis to an explanation I will build.

To continue with this embarrassing narative my grandfather was ashamed of being an Indian so he told people he was Hawian back in the 1920's (he was born around 1908) and made his living early in life as a Hawaian musician on a carny circuit were he met his Cherokee wife, my grandmother Hazel Hicks a Hawian dancer (hootchie coo) on the carnival circuit. Yes those are my humble roots, I come from carny folk. (I can see ya'll smirkin') Sometime downline (probably as children came their way) they settled in various places, Lawrence Kansas to work at the Maytag plant assembling washing machines and eventually to Indianpolis Indiana to get employment at the General Motors plant. My grandmother told us stories that she heard when young about her people getting kicked out of the Carolinas and then again being evacuated from Oklahoma ( the desolate place the federal government relocated the Cherokees to) when oil was discovered (intelligent people then realized that the worthless land was too good for dislocated Indians) there is a whole history of land swindles and manifest destiny used as method and justification. Anyway I'm sure you're wondering what's the point, and I still ask for your patience. Grandfather too had his issues with being Indian as evidenced by being Hawian---- the result being he became
a very violent and abusive man---and though hard working---literally terrorized his family (my mother and siblings). Having this background my mother married an equally abusive man(my father) (as those things go, attempts to resolve childhood conflicts) who in turn terrorized his family (me and my sisters). My father had his own horror show of an upbringing and it was a perfect match to replay old scripts. I want you to know that my father worked extremely hard as a Union carpenter, was a veteran of the Korean war, and sent us to a Catholic grade school, but underneath the middleclass veneer of normalacy he was absolutely brutal
with his family in private. Blood on the kitchen floor was a weekly occurrence.Yeah I know, boo hoo, get over it. Again I hear a greek chorus of questioning relevancy. Well we're getting closer to the point, but I will ask one more indulgence of the readers
and ask them to consider the timeline of my narrative. The Black Hills were ceeded to the Lakotas (my grandfathers tribe) in
various Treaties back in the 1860's (yes I hear the groans of protest at yet another digression) and with glowing terms of rehtoric
were promised to stand as formal declarations and contracts with the Great White Brother and His people. Then Custer found
GOLD in them thar hills, and we all know what ensued, ya'll took the Black Hills. Again manifest destiny was the phlosophical
underpinning to the theft. And even though the resources of that theft could have ultimately made a difference in the succeeding
generations of the lawful owners of that property, the material resources WERE NOT what the LAKOTAS cared about. They were concerned with the cosmology and spiritual ramifications of the loss, as the Black Hills were central to their spiritual identity and considered Sacred Land and the center of the Universe. I feel a collective figurative smirk again in the readers concluding again the wisdom of their forbearers and agents in antiquity and concurring with the assessment that the dumb Natives didn't deserve a resource if they didn't understand its value as a commodity of exchange.

Again what is the point of this ancient history.

Well one point is, it is *not* so ancient. To those of you who think Vietnam is ancient, you will not understand, but to others in midlife, as I am, a span of 50 years is not so long.

And partial to my developing point is that the ramifications of these policys are still being played out in real peoples lives in direct generational legacys of disfunction and/or inclusion or alienation to the processes that enable one to accrue wealth.

These events I ask you to recall happened within 4 generations of my families history, ie: my great grandparents. Consider that also as you observe the Hip Hop culture of African slave decendants. Consider the generational legacy of grandparents facing
poll taxes in the south and colored drinking fountains in the 1940's. Consider at least some of these things when you see young black men selling drugs or belonging to gangs. How well would you be handling an upbringing of desperation and violence, a lack of education, being void of successful modeling, as a way of life?

Slavery and the civil war all played out in the same time frame of being 4 generations ago back in the 1860's.

I know we all want to believe that the American society provides an even playing field and all citzens have as good a chance as others, and there are examples of people risng above their circumstances but not nearly as often as people think.

OK, so here goes. These are two examples of how the wealth of the nation was created, two pinacles of foundation of collective prosperity, slavery and theft. Slavery and theft enforced and directed by the Government to take from the disenfranchised to give to those who had the political power and the provenance of law to enable the theft.

Laws are made by an aliance of the elite to enable them to control the processess that garner more fortune. Its still happening.

I've read the reports on Iraqi oil contracts being 40 year leases with garuateed right of renewal. Didn't George Bush just pass a capital gains tax? That must be nice for all you folks that have the luxury of having investments. I can't afford to pay my rent from month to month.
I see you all are concerned here that you are paying way too much and we the common people are Enslaving You by asking
you to pay for way too much. Things like medicare and social security being a redistribution of wealth and a theft of the top tier
of tax payers.

My mother went blind in the early 90's and yes we relied on certain medicaid and social programs to help her.
What would you have me do, put her out in the snow? I mean this *blindness thing* really *did* make her become unproductive and
therefore a burden.

Perhaps you think I should be more industrious so I could afford all of her up keep myself? Most people with my background either become crimnals or deranged. I so far have tried to keep myself from becoming a burden to society or an abuser, but frankly, as a result of my personal legacy, the violence in my formative years, I struggle with mental health.

My point in all of this embarrassing narrative is that the sons and daughters of fortune are receiving a legacy of Inherent Advantage , and that our system of government was designed to enable, enforce and perpetuate that priviledge.
Who are our law makers and how do we choose them.? George Bush, Ken Lay, John Kerry et. al.

As John Fogarty sang :" it aint me, it ain't me, I ain't no Senators son, I ain't no fortunate one."

If there are segments in our society that find themselves in the fortunate position to be of the Patrician Class, it would be my guess they did not arrive there completely on their own merits. There were the institutions of society and capital and all of the attendent advantage that brings, in having far greater choice and *oppotunity being made available* to those in the now fortunate position of being able to complain.

I believe they do have a social contract to help people less fortunate than themselves, in matters of health and to meet certain basic human needs.

Although that Disney Vacation line is a real cute analogy for the greed of the great common unwashed (all of those people that don't drive SUVs) and do have to *often decide* * between food, housing and health*. For instance I need medical attention right now but I can not afford it, so I do not go.

The taxess being represented as philosophical theft are used for other things too, like enacting fair housing and labor law,
preventing predatory lending and discrimination.

For the current fortunate generation to now complain about social security is being far too enamoured with your own worth and contribution to society in general. As if you arrived in a frontier and barehandledly forged the whole deal. We are living on the backs of our forefathers, for good or ill.

How dare these parasites take money from me to help fund their old age, what will they expect me to do or help pay for next,
their heat? Yeah thats a Real Disney Vacation to Many retirees deciding if they can splurge and turn up their heat a few degrees.

Besides at a certain level you need the common everyday folk to buy your consumer goods and fight your wars.

I guess some will cry foul that I am arguing on the concept of class and that it is very un-American to do so, but I will remind you that class distinction is totally American, it is what we are told is possible and it is what we all aspire to, the upward mobility and security of wealth. It is just the talking of it, even whiperings of class division, that is taboo.

And if the argument bothers you , you can also dismiss it at its source, as being the ramblings of an under educated dumb Indian.


on Mar 04, 2004
This was the best post I've ever red.
Give it up for the dumb indians!

Peace

/Foolish Norse
on Jul 04, 2004
One common thing about the left I've noticed is that they try to change the subject when they get uncomfortable. Hence, rather than trying to argue whether it's a good thing or bad thing to transfer money from the economically most productive people to everyone else they try to say "Well, they're not transffering as much as the stats, for if you play around with the numbers enough you'll see that the top 10% are only paying for half the taxes instead of 70%" I mean hell, sales tax? That's a STATE tax for crying out loud. And payroll tax? I noticed that the guy you mentioned seemed to ignore who pays the other half of payroll tax (businesses).


One thing I've long advocated for wage reform is making all corporate benefits and contributions to their employees (wages, health care, IRA's, etc) 100% tax deductible. Corporate welfare? Not at all, but rather, common sense. For one thing, when the corporation pays taxes, then pays the employee, that's double taxation, which makes no sense. For another, obviously with the benefit of tax deduction, employee salaries and benefits would increase. I have yet to work for ONE employer who wouldn't like to pay their employees more without it affecting their bottom line (but in a consumer based economy, your wages must remain low to accomplish return on shareholder equity [or your stocks tank which is good for NOONE], and to still provide affordable products/services for your customer (or they don't buy your product; again good for noone).
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