Brad Wardell's views about technology, politics, religion, world affairs, and all sorts of politically incorrect topics.
Respecting the rights of the majority
Published on February 5, 2004 By Draginol In Personal Relationships

The United States is premised on the separation of church and state. But over time, what that separation means has changed.  The founding fathers wanted to ensure that people were free to practice whatever religion they wanted. Moreover, they wanted to ensure that the government did not establish any official religion. You will regularly hear the ACLU refer to the "establishment clause" of the US constitution as the basis for their various lawsuits against states.

It's a sticky situation because for such a long while, the percentage of Americans who were Christians were so high that religious concepts made their way into government policy. This wasn't intentional in most cases. If you're a true believer many things that are religious in nature just seem natural, common sense, normal. One such thing is marriage.

In hindsight, it was probably a bad idea for the government to recognize marriage as anything beyond a civil union. But it's easy to understand why this happened. Marriage is such a normal part of human life that how could the government not recognize it?  As an agnostic, it's never bothered me either way. I am comfortable with my beliefs and do not feel threatened by people's religions. In fact, I embrace their beliefs because it helps create a deep tapestry of culture that enriches us all.

I also believe in two social principles: 1) That the traditions of the super-majority should be respected and protected. 2) The rights of the minority should be protected.

I think government should get out of the marriage business entirely. I support the right of any two people to "get married" regardless of sex.  However, the super majority don't think the government should recognize these unions. And by our constitution, that's pretty much that. Marriage isn't a "right". The 10th amendment makes pretty clear that anything not explicitly outlined in the constitution is left to "the people" (in the form of their democratically elected representatives).

That said, gays should have access to civil unions that have the same legal punch as marriage. It may seem like semantics but to millions of Americans, it's not. There is a principle involved here. The same people who argued that the Super Bowl nonsense with Janet Jackson was "no big deal" are likely to not see why people object to gay marriage. The majority of Americans believe in these traditions and they have been with us for literally thousands of years. All around us, however, small minorities seem bent on using the government to infringe on those traditions.  Marriage is a cultural phenomenon, not a religious one. And as long as the majority of Americans practicing it believe it should be between a man and a women exclusively that is what it should be. It's their tradition. Contrary to what some may believe, majorities have rights too.

The government should work to ensure that civil unions have the same legal meaning as marriages. Two consenting adults, regardless of sex, should have the right to form a legal union.  For that matter, I believe that any number of consenting adults should be able to form civil unions (whether you're into "Polyamory" or whatever). But marriage should not be open for redefinition by a small minority of people. And they should not be trying to use the tools of government to hijack it for their own uses.

 


Comments (Page 10)
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on Mar 09, 2004
i do no want my new born going to school have someone telling my child that gay life style is ok because it is worng get on the stick you people in the goverment
on Mar 10, 2004

Marriage isn't a "human right". Some people need to get a grip.

Marriage has been defined as being between a man and woman for thousands of years. I am all for gays having the right to civil unions that provide equal legal protections. But I do object to their attempt to re-define marriage for their political ends.

In a democracy, the majority rules. The only thing the constitution does is try to ensure that the RIGHTS of the minority are protected. Marriage isn't a right any more than driving or playing major league baseball.

on Mar 10, 2004
I just wanted to say your article was very insightful. I'm sure if all the 30% or so of Americans read this, they'd re-think their position a little better. Again, thanks.
on Mar 10, 2004
Didn't I just state that intelligent discussion on such issues must be in the realm of generalizations to be held as realistic by those that actually are looking to be informed. Comparing all homosexuals to the exceptions of heterosexuals is laughable.


Not when your objections are very specific. You object that homosexuals can not reproduce. I respond that elderly couples and sterile couples can not reproduce. You reject my argument on the grounds that it's too specific while not at all addressing the actual issue. Clever, but you didn't get away with it.


Again, your way too anxious to define me as a homophobe.


No anxiety involved; I just call them as I see them.


Because I disagree with something, or find it repulsive, or whatever it is that one may describe their dissonance with homosexuality as being, does not mean I fear it.


But in your particular case, I think you do fear it.


If it did, I'd be espouting classic hate lines like...


No, you refrain from spouting hate lines because you know they make you look stupid. But you're thinking them.


The rights of the super-majority take precidence.


What right of the majority applies here? What right of the majority is being infringed upon? The right to be the only ones getting married?

****

Marriage has been defined as being between a man and woman for thousands of years.


So? Masters and slaves had a relationship for thousands of years, too; that doesn't make it right.


But I do object to their attempt to re-define marriage for their political ends.


Political ends? They want to get married. That's it. It's not part of a sinister plot to take over the government. What "political end" is involved?


Marriage isn't a right any more than driving or playing major league baseball.


Equal protection under the law is a right.
on Mar 10, 2004
Mmm. Not necessarily the specificity of the arguement, but rather the specific example of one side compared to the broad generalization of the other side. I don't entertain the argument because I find it rediculous.

Ha ha, well then I guess I'm helpless to defend myself against your namecalling. Curious...do you think it's possible for a person to strongly disagree with homosexuality without fearing it? Or is it like the war in Iraq: if you speak out against it, you aren't supporting the soldiers? I personally think both responses are childish and more of a reactionary snipe because the debator lacks suffucient intelligence to appropriately argue the other side. But then again, I'm a homophobe, so what would I know.

How nice of you to know what I'm thinking. You make your point in a very eloquent manner. Oh wait, no you don't.

You know the answers to these questions. The right to democracy. When the majority believe in something, that thing should be represented appropriately. Your questions are just going round and round in circles meriting the same responses over and over again.

Masters and slaves: Violated life, liberty and the persuit of happiness. Homosexuals have all of these. If they choose to persue happiness in an illegal way, then that's the individuals problem, not everybody elses. Again with the extreme comparisons *shakes head*

Equal protection from what? Nobody is saying that an individual cannot get married, they just have to abide by the same rules that every other person in America is abiding by.
on Mar 10, 2004
I don't entertain the argument because I find it rediculous.


Then consider exactly two couples, a pair of 25-year-old homosexual men, and a man and a woman, both 75 years old. They are equally unable to have children. Why can the latter marry and the former not?


do you think it's possible for a person to strongly disagree with homosexuality without fearing it?


I think that the only possible way to disagree with it is to fear it, since disagreeing with it is, to me, completely illogical.


The right to democracy. When the majority believe in something, that thing should be represented appropriately.


We do not live in a democracy. Al Gore got more votes.


Masters and slaves: Violated life, liberty and the persuit of happiness. Homosexuals have all of these. If they choose to persue happiness in an illegal way, then that's the individuals problem, not everybody elses.


So slavery is wrong because it's wrong but homosexual marriage is wrong because it's illegal? Slavery was legal not long ago; did that make it okay before its abolition?
on Mar 10, 2004
Again, the exception of one group vs. the rule of another, they are different.

So, because you lack the ability to empathize with my position, I must be fearful of yours. That's assinine.

Representative government is a democracy, just not the way you think it should be.

No; slavery is wrong because it violates life, liberty and the persuit of happinees. Marriage being limited between a man a woman is not wrong because it does not violate anybodies life, liberty and persuit of happiness. No, it did not make it okay because it violated these principles. Yet another reason that you can't compare the two.

Perhaps this is why you see me as a homophobe. It is my understanding that you are assuming that I think homosexual marriage is wrong. That is not the case. I think that limiting marriage between a man and a woman is not in violation of anybodies rights, and since it's the choice of the majority and their representatives it should remain this way.
on Mar 10, 2004
Again, the exception of one group vs. the rule of another, they are different.


Translation: "I refuse to address the question you pose."


Representative government is a democracy, just not the way you think it should be.


No. Representative government is representative government; democracy is when the will of the majority rules. If everyone in the United States wants a law passed, but 535 people in Washington don't, guess what? No law.


Marriage being limited between a man a woman is not wrong because it does not violate anybodies life, liberty and persuit of happiness.


Um, it limits liberty and pursuit of happiness. Gays want to have the liberty to marry. Gays want to be happy by marrying.
on Mar 10, 2004
Round and round we go. Correct, I refuse to address an irrelevant point.

Those 535 don't will their way into office. They get their through people voting. But you know that, so go ahead and continue with your laughable counter-points.

Liberty? Really? Who exactly is it that homosexuals are slaves too? Last time I checked no homosexual was a slave. (with the exception of Mr. Slave on South Park)
Persuit of happiness, not a guarantee of it. If you're persuit is illegal, tough shit for you, choose a legal persuit.
on Mar 10, 2004
Those 535 don't will their way into office. They get their through people voting. But you know that, so go ahead and continue with your laughable counter-points.


All I'm saying is that once they're in, the will of the populace is irrelevant. Yes, they are elected democratically, but that does not make the government a democracy. It makes it a republic with democratic elections.


Liberty? Really? Who exactly is it that homosexuals are slaves too? Last time I checked no homosexual was a slave. (with the exception of Mr. Slave on South Park)


Liberty is not the opposite of slavery.


Persuit of happiness, not a guarantee of it. If you're persuit is illegal, tough shit for you, choose a legal persuit.


I am amazed that you can not see the illogic in this. YOU CAN NOT SAY THAT SOMETHING SHOULD BE ILLEGAL BECAUSE IT IS ILLEGAL. Guess what! If you make gay marriage legal, then it's not illegal anymore! Everyone's happy!
on Mar 10, 2004
True, but the will of the populace is heard through the people it elects, which was the original point.

Yes, liberty is the opposite of slavery.

Hold off on the caps their hero. I'm not saying something should be illegal because it's illegal. Re-read this caveat of the discussion further than the literal words in front of you. It states that limiting marriage to man and woman is not illegal because it does not violate these principles. All men and women are allowed to persue their happiness in the same manner, within the confines of the law. In other words, every man is given equal opportunties.

And since I know you're going to say.."Well when blacks blah blah blah..." I'll just address it now instead of waiting.

The Supreme Court intervened with blacks because it was shown they were not being treated equally. The laws made were to ensure equal opportunities, not different opportunities. Homosexuals are being held to the same standard as everybody else and given the same opportunities as everyone else. To claim that your different so the rules shouldn't apply is not the same as claiming that you're not being treated equally.

That would be like me saying..."Well, I'm an atheist, and I don't believe in sin, so I should be able to committ adultery." That's crap, just because I disagree with the laws doesn't mean I get to change them to suit me. Especially when I'm in a democracy (or representative republic) and the majority disagree with me and are giving me the same rights as everybody else.
on Mar 10, 2004
BulbousHead: It has been a great dance, but alas, my work week is through. Next week it's back to the field. Enjoy your crusades, as I shall enjoy mine. And it's alright, you can admit that you agree with me wholeheartedly. Nobody's going to hold it against you Afterall, my points are entirely too sinister to not be truth And with that, I bid you adeaux.
on Mar 10, 2004
True, but the will of the populace is heard through the people it elects, which was the original point.


WIth that I can not disagree, but you should say what you mean.


Yes, liberty is the opposite of slavery.


No. www.m-w.com


Homosexuals are being held to the same standard as everybody else and given the same opportunities as everyone else. To claim that your different so the rules shouldn't apply is not the same as claiming that you're not being treated equally.


It depends on what the nature of the "equality" is. You're coming from the point of view that a homosexual man is free to marry a woman the same way that a heterosexual man is. I'm coming from the point of view that a homosexual man should be able to marry someone he loves the same way that a heterosexual man can. Superficial equality is not justice; suppose that you hate chocolate ice cream and that I love it, and suppose that someone gives us each a bowl of chocolate ice cream. I can say that we were treated equally since we both got the same ice cream, but you can say that we were not treated equally because I got what I like and you got what you hate.


..."Well, I'm an atheist, and I don't believe in sin, so I should be able to committ adultery." That's crap, just because I disagree with the laws doesn't mean I get to change them to suit me.


No, but it doesn't mean you can't work to change those laws, either. My point was that you were using the law to back up the reasoning behind the law. Besides, the supreme law of the land is the Constitution, and one could quite plausibly argue that gay marriage can not be prohibited because such a ban would be unconstitutional.


And with that, I bid you adeaux.


Or adieu, if you're one of those correct-spelling types.
on Mar 10, 2004
ha ha, no time to get into the rest...but it's French. Who really cares if it's spelled right anyway.
on Mar 10, 2004
Nearly half the people in this country believe they should have the right (even if they don't personally want to exercise that right) to marry a person of either sex. There's no "super-majority" of people who think marriage should be limited to a heterosexual union. They're super-cranky, certainly, but not a super-majority, unless you think that 50-60% is a staggering proportion of the population.

Secondly, marriage doesn't belong to this slight majority, simply because they have a certain opinion about it. It's not "their tradition," as you say. The people who oppose same-sex marriage aren't any older than the ones who favor it. They didn't invent marriage. The institution of marriage belongs to everyone equally, and everyone has an equal say in how to define it.
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