Brad Wardell's views about technology, politics, religion, world affairs, and all sorts of politically incorrect topics.
Respecting the rights of the majority
Published on February 5, 2004 By Draginol In Personal Relationships

The United States is premised on the separation of church and state. But over time, what that separation means has changed.  The founding fathers wanted to ensure that people were free to practice whatever religion they wanted. Moreover, they wanted to ensure that the government did not establish any official religion. You will regularly hear the ACLU refer to the "establishment clause" of the US constitution as the basis for their various lawsuits against states.

It's a sticky situation because for such a long while, the percentage of Americans who were Christians were so high that religious concepts made their way into government policy. This wasn't intentional in most cases. If you're a true believer many things that are religious in nature just seem natural, common sense, normal. One such thing is marriage.

In hindsight, it was probably a bad idea for the government to recognize marriage as anything beyond a civil union. But it's easy to understand why this happened. Marriage is such a normal part of human life that how could the government not recognize it?  As an agnostic, it's never bothered me either way. I am comfortable with my beliefs and do not feel threatened by people's religions. In fact, I embrace their beliefs because it helps create a deep tapestry of culture that enriches us all.

I also believe in two social principles: 1) That the traditions of the super-majority should be respected and protected. 2) The rights of the minority should be protected.

I think government should get out of the marriage business entirely. I support the right of any two people to "get married" regardless of sex.  However, the super majority don't think the government should recognize these unions. And by our constitution, that's pretty much that. Marriage isn't a "right". The 10th amendment makes pretty clear that anything not explicitly outlined in the constitution is left to "the people" (in the form of their democratically elected representatives).

That said, gays should have access to civil unions that have the same legal punch as marriage. It may seem like semantics but to millions of Americans, it's not. There is a principle involved here. The same people who argued that the Super Bowl nonsense with Janet Jackson was "no big deal" are likely to not see why people object to gay marriage. The majority of Americans believe in these traditions and they have been with us for literally thousands of years. All around us, however, small minorities seem bent on using the government to infringe on those traditions.  Marriage is a cultural phenomenon, not a religious one. And as long as the majority of Americans practicing it believe it should be between a man and a women exclusively that is what it should be. It's their tradition. Contrary to what some may believe, majorities have rights too.

The government should work to ensure that civil unions have the same legal meaning as marriages. Two consenting adults, regardless of sex, should have the right to form a legal union.  For that matter, I believe that any number of consenting adults should be able to form civil unions (whether you're into "Polyamory" or whatever). But marriage should not be open for redefinition by a small minority of people. And they should not be trying to use the tools of government to hijack it for their own uses.

 


Comments (Page 12)
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on Mar 29, 2004
your right bakerstreet, the founding father also never intended for blacks to be coverd in the constitution. here's your hood.
on Mar 29, 2004
Who's being kept from getting married? Homosexuals can marry members of the other sex just as much as heterosexuals can, and heterosexuals can't marry members of the same sex anymore than homosexuals can. Homosexuals have the same rights as heterosexuals. Sure, they want the right to marry members of the opposite sex, but they're not the only group not being allowed to marry anybody they desire. Even heterosexuals are forbidden to marry certain types of people (and objects and animals).

But youd still be wrong because they looked upon the homosexuals in their ranks as being blessed by not one, but two spirits, and held them in very high regard.


And you're all right with that? That's as prejudice as holding them in low regard, which the U.S. does not do.
on Mar 29, 2004
To WAA, RE: "My point in posting in the first place was for those in the discussion to realize that the rights of homosexuals are not even close to the attrocities of Jews, women and blacks."
I see that you are a fan of ommision or maybe just ingorance, but hitler made just as much of a point to burn gays as he did jews. Where do you think the symbol of a pink triangle came from?
Also, I spent many years listening to and agreeing with those people that said being gay was wrong. I sounded a lot like you. It took a suicide attempt to convince me that I was not making a choice about who to be attracted to, I was just accepting myself for who I was.
and Brad, people didn't just wake up one morning and decide to vote for womens right to vote, it took a lot of protests and civil disobedience to change those peoples minds. That is what's happening now. and polls don't prove anything except that any question asked the right way will give someone the response they need to make their point.
on Mar 29, 2004
Super Baby,
Predjudice is a european concept. The native Americans did not belive in wasting people
on Mar 29, 2004
To WAA, RE: "My point in posting in the first place was for those in the discussion to realize that the rights of homosexuals are not even close to the attrocities of Jews, women and blacks."
I see that you are a fan of ommision or maybe just ingorance, but hitler made just as much of a point to burn gays as he did jews.


I'll agree with that. Doesn't do anything for the gay marriage argument though.

Super Baby,
Predjudice is a european concept. The native Americans did not belive in wasting people


Wasting people? What are you talking about? I guess since they didn't think it was prejudice to think more highly of homosexuals (and because it's homosexuals, now if they thought lowly of them, that'd be just wrong ), it must not be, even if it is prejudice to think more highly of a group just because they belong to a particular group.
on Apr 05, 2004
Incest and same-sex marriages have nothing to do with each other. Incest can be defined as wrong because it's of the same bloodline and therefore unhealthy to your children should you have any, and Lord knows this country can't keep track of every family in which there is incest and all the children who come from parents of the same bloodline.
on Apr 07, 2004
I have one question to ask you. You said that the majority of this country is against marriage of a gay couple, but do you have proof? Have you asked the entire country what they think about this issue? Its impossible to get the vote from everyone in the US since not every one takes polls like that. So therefore there is no actual proof that the majority is against gay marriage. I konw that the majority where I live is definatly for gay marriage.
on Apr 15, 2004
Your article is interesting, but this issue is about religion. Perhaps if you were a gay person desiring not only an equal institution with your loved one but the same institution you would understand. You concept of respecting the majority and social norms of tradition, is again interesting, but un-rounded. How could you possibly think that just a respect of tradition and a back--off approach to social change ic right. We live in a melting pot of culture, religion, ethnic diversity in a nation that has a representative in it's population of every part of the world. One of the fundamental principals that America should and does follow is change. America's Laws and policies should allow for the full freedom and rights of all Americans even if there were only 5 gay people in the whole nation, they should be bestowed those rights, as many or as few they may be. You must remember that Slavery was also a coveted tradition, both in Africa, and the new world. I for one am glad that social change came about. Think about what your saying, and don't support a segregation notion of settling for just civil unions, you might as well be against it entirely.
on Apr 15, 2004
Your article is interesting, but this issue is about religion. Perhaps if you were a gay person desiring not only an equal institution with your loved one but the same institution you would understand. You concept of respecting the majority and social norms of tradition, is again interesting, but un-rounded. How could you possibly think that just a respect of tradition and a back--off approach to social change ic right. We live in a melting pot of culture, religion, ethnic diversity in a nation that has a representative in it's population of every part of the world. One of the fundamental principals that America should and does follow is change. America's Laws and policies should allow for the full freedom and rights of all Americans even if there were only 5 gay people in the whole nation, they should be bestowed those rights, as many or as few they may be. You must remember that Slavery was also a coveted tradition, both in Africa, and the new world. I for one am glad that social change came about. Think about what your saying, and don't support a segregation notion of settling for just civil unions, you might as well be against it entirely.
on May 12, 2004
There are many reasons that people sustain to be against a homosexual marriage. But most of these don’t even have basis. Maybe, being homosexual is not natural in a biological way, but that doesn’t mean it is not normal. Nobody has the right to determine what is normal and what is abnormal. Same-sex marriage should be legalized because gays are humans just as heterosexuals so they must have the same rights.

The main argument of the people who are opposite to this kind of union generally is that gays are not able to maintain a serious relationship. They believe that the fact of being homosexual makes them promiscuous. In a way this is kind of true, just as it is with heterosexual relationships. And off course, we can not generalize, just because it happens it doesn’t mean all gay people is promiscuous and doesn’t like serious relationships.

Many people argue that marriage is for procreation . So homosexuals, who obviously can’t, mustn’t marry. However, people who are infertile are able to marry, even though it is not possible for them to procreate. Besides, marriage is a union of love, so if two heterosexual, poor people love each other but they don’t want to have children because they wouldn’t be able to feed them, then they mustn’t get married?

Most of the people who are against homosexual marriage believe that marriage’s main function is to raise children . But then, why is it allowed for criminals to marry and have children? It is scientifically proved that the results of children rose in homosexuals’ marriages are similar to heterosexuals’ marriages. But as always, there are exceptions, but those happen in both kinds of families.

Heterosexuals also believe that if a kid is raised in a gay family, then he would turn out also gay. But isn’t it true that there are homosexuals that born is straight families? So it doesn’t matter the family, if the child must be gay, then he will. Besides, there is nothing wrong of being homosexual. As I have wrote before, the fact that it is not natural to procreate doesn’t mean it is nor normal.

The truth is that gays “coming out of the closet” is a very recent event, so the majority of the people is not prepared to accept the fact that homosexuality is normal. Even though same-sex attraction has always existed, our era is the first where they accept their sexuality in society. Straight people should open their mind to the fact that life changes with time, just because the homosexuality of a person was considered to be a secret, it doesn’t mean it cannot change.
on May 20, 2004
Primarily, I want to thank Brad Wardell and everyone else who has thoughtfully contributed their opinions to this forum. True, there may currently be many other national issues with more concrete social/economic implications to be dealt with (with regard to the "making a mountain out of a molehill" comment), but it is hard to deny the emotional response that the topic of same-sex marriages triggers for proponents of either side. This discussion has so far been very interesting and I'm sure it has served many people (including myself) as a source of insight. If there's one thing that I have garnered from the discussion, it is my observation that rhetoric and reason are crafty tools- both can be bent to amply serve any opinion. Gotta love that.

And now, I admittedly offer yet another example of exploited rhetoric: (alas, there just doesn't seem to be any way around it...)

The reasons for my personal opinion on the current topic aside, the one thing on this page that I can wholeheartedly agree with is a statement in Brad Wardell's initial posting. Our country's feelings on Gay marriage do seem to be changing- the majority may sooner rather than later become the minority. If this is the case, so be it- but leave the decision regarding an institution created and established with the support of society up to the PEOPLE of that society.

As long as the right for ALL citizens to marry an individual of the opposite gender is equally protected under law (and it is), and as long as ALL citizens have the opportunity to enjoy the equal personal/economic benefits of a partnership aknowledged by the government (Civil Unions prove viable);
Then, as long as these conditions exist, may THE PEOPLE (through the legislature), rather than the members of an activist judiciary, decide when and how to alter a long-established civil convention.

As hard as it may be, we, as Americans, must continually strive to exemplify a Democratic Republic.
Democracy still works.
on May 20, 2004
marriage is a promise of love and respect and loyalty.
between 2 people who love and honour each other ..simple really.
Why do people feel threatened by gay marriage?
Does it REALLY effect you?
Marriage effects the people involved.
It wasn't that long ago that these attitudes were expressed about inter racial-marriages.
Life is too short. Everyone deserves the right to be happy ...will this really cause you unhappiness?
What gives anyone the right to judge?
Or are we all so perfect ..we know what is best?

Jess
on May 24, 2004
The history repeats itself; Freeing slaves was an outragregeous act once. Now people look at those times say vow! did that really happen? Slavery? people were slaves? vow!! In 100 years later we will look at back now and say 'gay weren't allowed to marry can you believe it'? Soon or later it is going to happen. you like it or not.

This country is very interesting; In work place or in a social environment everybody seems so open to liberal ideas like accepting gays among them. No discrimination or anything like that. Everybody is so cool about it. But once something like this becomes official. Boom. Those cool people suddenly find the most idiotic reasons to justify what is right and what is wrong. It is not about what's best? It is about what YOU think it is best. But it aint helping. I see thru the words. You cannot hide behind these lame excuses. Sorry buddy you have to be really creative to hide that fear and dicriminating nature of yours. It is getting harder and harder to keep that down. This puridish society is trembling. And the majority like yourself is getting a slap on the face.

After the cold war, the US was the strongest nation in the world. It still is. But knowing that created summer love; We live in the greatest nation; Let's have fun; no war let's shag... and the ignorance is born; The new society have know idea about what's happening in the world except that they live in the greatest place on earth. We live in the greatest nation. Everything is taken care for us. We don't even need to think much. Our nation is best. Our government takes care of us. That's is the majority you are talking about. majority? Majority? Is that what you came up with? Everything came to US from Europe. And it is still coming. First settlers. fashion. ideas. now gay marriage. Majority? Majority of this society is followers. They don't make decisions. They follow. And if something is wrong. They complain. That's your majority.
on May 24, 2004

Some people apparently forget that women got the right to vote and slavery abolished through the democratic process -- not through the courts.

If gay marriage is something that American society thinks is acceptable then they will express that opinion through their ELECTED representatives.

on Jun 30, 2004
Gay Marriage is wrong if you read the bible you wil find out
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