Brad Wardell's views about technology, politics, religion, world affairs, and all sorts of politically incorrect topics.
Respecting the rights of the majority
Published on February 5, 2004 By Draginol In Personal Relationships

The United States is premised on the separation of church and state. But over time, what that separation means has changed.  The founding fathers wanted to ensure that people were free to practice whatever religion they wanted. Moreover, they wanted to ensure that the government did not establish any official religion. You will regularly hear the ACLU refer to the "establishment clause" of the US constitution as the basis for their various lawsuits against states.

It's a sticky situation because for such a long while, the percentage of Americans who were Christians were so high that religious concepts made their way into government policy. This wasn't intentional in most cases. If you're a true believer many things that are religious in nature just seem natural, common sense, normal. One such thing is marriage.

In hindsight, it was probably a bad idea for the government to recognize marriage as anything beyond a civil union. But it's easy to understand why this happened. Marriage is such a normal part of human life that how could the government not recognize it?  As an agnostic, it's never bothered me either way. I am comfortable with my beliefs and do not feel threatened by people's religions. In fact, I embrace their beliefs because it helps create a deep tapestry of culture that enriches us all.

I also believe in two social principles: 1) That the traditions of the super-majority should be respected and protected. 2) The rights of the minority should be protected.

I think government should get out of the marriage business entirely. I support the right of any two people to "get married" regardless of sex.  However, the super majority don't think the government should recognize these unions. And by our constitution, that's pretty much that. Marriage isn't a "right". The 10th amendment makes pretty clear that anything not explicitly outlined in the constitution is left to "the people" (in the form of their democratically elected representatives).

That said, gays should have access to civil unions that have the same legal punch as marriage. It may seem like semantics but to millions of Americans, it's not. There is a principle involved here. The same people who argued that the Super Bowl nonsense with Janet Jackson was "no big deal" are likely to not see why people object to gay marriage. The majority of Americans believe in these traditions and they have been with us for literally thousands of years. All around us, however, small minorities seem bent on using the government to infringe on those traditions.  Marriage is a cultural phenomenon, not a religious one. And as long as the majority of Americans practicing it believe it should be between a man and a women exclusively that is what it should be. It's their tradition. Contrary to what some may believe, majorities have rights too.

The government should work to ensure that civil unions have the same legal meaning as marriages. Two consenting adults, regardless of sex, should have the right to form a legal union.  For that matter, I believe that any number of consenting adults should be able to form civil unions (whether you're into "Polyamory" or whatever). But marriage should not be open for redefinition by a small minority of people. And they should not be trying to use the tools of government to hijack it for their own uses.

 


Comments (Page 6)
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on Feb 25, 2004
Protect the lives of the children?? Maybe if they grow up with gay parents they will learn not to discriminate against others. Children don't need to always be "protected". Everyone faces difficulties in life, and difficulties make someone stronger in life. Also if gay couples adopted children we would have less of an issue of children in orphanages. Now isn't having a loving home better than living in an orphanage? Think about it...
on Feb 26, 2004
While more progressive than most (and I applaud that, especially due to some of the backwards comments on this article), what I have issues with is the "separate but equal" issue.

"Separate but equal" is not equal.

I believe that government should not be in the marriage business at all. There should be one category of "registered partnerships" or "civil unions" - open to all, mostly for tax purposes. Religious institutions should not be forced to marry same-sex couples should they choose not to. Many same-sex couples who wish for a religious ceremony will find plenty of progressive congregations who are willing to do this.

In saying that, please keep in mind that I, myself, am gay.

This is the best way to achieve a compromise between religious freedom (religious bodies aren't forced against their will) and personal freedom (the ability to be legally partnered with who one loves.

m.
canada.
on Feb 26, 2004
As a gay man, I want to be able to put my partner on my medical insurance through work, I want to be able to file taxes together, I want all the possible monetary benefits that heterosexuals get when they get a marriage license.
I, personally, would prefer NOT to use the term marriage. For me (my perspective), the terms marriage, husband, and wife are heterosexual in nature and with religious backgrounds. But if the majority wants to call it that, so be it. Just give me the same benefits.
I understand the activists think that the term "civil unions" gives the impression of second class citizens. I have to disagree with this. I think that is what the government should strive for....for all couples.
One quick note: The notion that the majoirty is against this confuses me. Where are these polls being taken? Inside a Baptist church? I live in the midwest, in a middle American city, and I find just the opposite. Perhaps, my friends (most of whom are straight) are just being nice when I ask them about it. Perhaps, but I don't think so. In fact, the minoirty that is singled out at work is a woman we call church lady. Not very nice...but the point is, the conservatives are loosing a lot more ground than they think. Who are they loosing it to? Those of who can reconginize ourselves as human beings, with individual thoughts, ideas, and compassion (and respect) for our other human beings.
on Feb 26, 2004
Can someone relay to me the reasoning behind being against same sex unions without saying the majority (I don't recall us voting on this issue, did I miss it?), religion (separation of church and state), incest/chickens/apes (children and most farm animals can't consent to sex) or "its just wrong"?

I ask because I am really interested in hearing the points against it, but I haven't really heard much other than "morality" and religious beliefs. We let plenty of immoral people get married, people who get married and then break their vows with adultery. The Supreme Court ruled that prison inmates are allowed to get married. If I were to say I thought interracial marriages should be banned (there's nothing that genetically disposes a person to fall in love with someone from another race) I'd be hard pressed to find people to back me up.

In a time when divorce rates are so high, and people don't seem to believe in the sanctity of vows, why wouldn't we want to encourage people to be committed to another person, instead of discouraging it.

I am very open to hearing a valid argument against it, how it decreases the rights of other groups, how it affects, financially or otherwise, heterosexual marriage and/or couples. I have been doing a lot of searching, and I would really welcome an argument that addressed these issues.
on Feb 26, 2004

Can someone relay to me the reasoning behind being against same sex unions without saying the majority (I don't recall us voting on this issue, did I miss it?), religion (separation of church and state), incest/chickens/apes (children and most farm animals can't consent to sex) or "its just wrong"?


Well, it is because the majority is against it. Also, incest can be between two adults.


In a time when divorce rates are so high, and people don't seem to believe in the sanctity of vows, why wouldn't we want to encourage people to be committed to another person, instead of discouraging it.


I don't see anybody discouraging it. People even offer the possibility of a "civil union" with the same rights and everything. If anything, throwing away the tradition of marriage as it is would just make it much more meaningless.

on Feb 26, 2004
So, Messy, the answer to my question "Can someone relay to me the reasoning behind being against same sex unions without saying...etc." is no? As you were not able to answer the question without saying either of those things.
on Feb 26, 2004
Homosexuality is not natural, much like eyeglasses, polyester, and birth control.

Heterosexual marriages are valid because they produce children. Infertile couples and old people can’t legally get married because the world needs more children.

Obviously gay parents will raise gay children, since straight parents only raise straight children.

Straight marriage will be less meaningful, since Britney Spears’ 55-hour just-for-fun marriage was meaningful.

Heterosexual marriage has been around a long time and hasn’t changed at all; women are property, blacks can’t marry whites, and divorce is illegal.

Gay marriage should be decided by people not the courts, because the majority-elected legislatures, not courts, have historically protected the rights of the minorities.

Gay marriage is not supported by religion. In a theocracy like ours, the values of one religion are imposed on the entire country. That’s why we have only one religion in America.

Gay marriage will encourage people to be gay, in the same way that hanging around tall people will make you tall.

Legalizing gay marriage will open the door to all kinds of crazy behavior. People may even wish to marry their pets because a dog has legal standing and can sign a marriage contract.

Children can never suceed without a male and a female role model at home. That’s why single parents are forbidden to raise children.

Gay marriage will change the foundation of society. Heterosexual marriage has been around for a long time, and we could never adapt to new social norms because we haven’t adapted to cars or longer lifespans.

Civil unions, providing most of the same benefits as marriage with a different name are better, because a “seperate but equal” institution is always constitutional. Seperate schools for African-Americans worked just as well as seperate marriages for gays and lesbians will.
on Feb 26, 2004
What is your obsession with incest Messy?? The truth is, if gay marriage was legalized, incest would not be. It is outlawed because incest causes mentally-ill children and genetic malfunctions. And also 10% of the population isn't attracted to their brother or dad. So you can stop worrying about opening a new can of worms, ok?
------
Also, it isn't much of a majority anymore that we're talking about. Around 55-60 percent of people in America are against gay marriage, varying from each poll I have read. Yes, it is still a majority overall, but I'm sure it won't be forever. It is only a matter of time.
on Feb 26, 2004
Hmm...it's strange that the names aren't appearing, just a weird numbers..... anyways..
"Can someone relay to me the reasoning behind being against same sex unions without saying...etc."

Quite simply, there is no reasoning and no good answers. It is simple discrimination. For some incomprehensible reason people always want to the find an excuse to make someone second class. It is a bad side of human nature....
on Feb 26, 2004
What is your obsession with incest Messy?? The truth is, if gay marriage was legalized, incest would not be. It is outlawed because incest causes mentally-ill children and genetic malfunctions. And also 10% of the population isn't attracted to their brother or dad. So you can stop worrying about opening a new can of worms, ok?


So if less than 10% of the population does something, society has the right to forbid it, even if it's about true love and hurts nobody? Also, homosexual incest does not produge mentally-ill children.
Also, just how much worse is the risk of siblings having deformed children than of two non-siblings having them? What about mothers with HIV? There's a risk that they could pass on HIV to their children. Therefore, they shouldn't be allowed to marry or mate either because the risk is too great.
on Feb 26, 2004

Somewhere in this mass of comments it says that the traditions and religious marraiges belong to the majority, well hello, homosexuals are people to, they can be christians and whatever they want, the traditions are theirs too, and they should be able to pratice them regardless. If we didn't have so many people in this world who worried so much about themselves and the majority, and if everyone look out for each other and let everyone be confortable, then the world would be a better place. Why can't we just let them be??? So the bible doesn't say anything about homosexuality, maybe they forgot to write about it, there have been gays since forever, especially in ancient Greece. It's been around long enough, what's the big deal, get over it.
on Feb 27, 2004
Can someone who supports gay marriage explain why they haven't also advocated for the rights of polygamists?
on Feb 27, 2004
Can someone who supports gay marriage explain why they haven't also advocated for the rights of polygamists?


I've said a couple of times on here that I have no problem with polygamy.
on Feb 27, 2004
What about the Children that will be raised under these gay or lesbian house holds. Humans are in nature supposed to have one father and one mother. Each of the two parents have characteristics that are vitial for the child to grow to there potential. Living under one of these alternative house holds will deprive that child and give him a warped image of the world. And may we all go back into history and view why the Roman Impire fell one of the main reasons was a decaying culture and gay rights, abortion and Euthanisa had much to do with that. I am worried about the welfare of our country, we must take a stand.
on Feb 27, 2004
Humans are in nature supposed to have one father and one mother.


Because you say so?


Each of the two parents have characteristics that are vitial for the child to grow to there potential.


They can't be that vital; plenty of children of single parents grow up just fine.


Living under one of these alternative house holds will deprive that child and give him a warped image of the world.


The child will probably grow up thinking homosexuality is...ACCEPTABLE!! *gasp, followed by heart attack*


And may we all go back into history and view why the Roman Impire fell one of the main reasons was a decaying culture and gay rights


Congratulations on writing the most stupid thing I've read so far today!
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