Brad Wardell's views about technology, politics, religion, world affairs, and all sorts of politically incorrect topics.
It's about the law
Published on March 28, 2005 By Draginol In Politics

As far as the law is concerned, it has spoken. Many courts have heard Terry Schiavo's case and concluded that Terry would not have wanted to be kept alive through artificial means.

That is what this case boils down to. People have the right to decide whether they want to be kept alive via artificial means.  And the courts determined that there was sufficient evidence through testimony that Terry would not have wanted to be kept alive this way.

However, it's the "evidence" that is problematic here in my opinion.  She had no living will. Hopefully this incident will encourage people to start making living wills so that the judicial system can't be screwed around like this.  Terry's parents say she would not want to be starved to death.  Terry's husband says she would.

In my view, the word of Terry's husband is meaningless. He's moved on.  He has two children with another women.  As soon as he had a child with another woman, his "guardianship" rights should be reverted to the parents.  And the parents want her to be kept alive.  She's not on life support, she simply is incapable of feeding herself.

That is where I think the focus of the debate exists.  Frankly, we really don't know what Terry wanted.  I know I would not want to be kept alive via artificial means but on the other hand, I don't know if I'd like the idea of being starved to death over a two week period. I think when most people think of being taken off "life support" they picture themselves in a coma without the ability to breath on their own. 

That's why this case is so compelling.  We really don't know what Terry would have wanted and so many people feel that the default option should be life and not starvation.

Anyone who has ever worked in a group home for the mentally disabled can tell you that there are literally hundreds of thousands of people who would die without what would seem to most people extraordinary intervention.  She we starve them to death too?

In fact, why stop there?  How about the people are incapable of feeding themselves without government subsidies? Billions are spent providing food to people who somehow have managed to screw up their lives to the point that they can't afford to pay for their own food.  Should we stop providing them food?

What's ironic is if Terry were a convicted murderer, one could almost imagine the far left out in force protesting on the other side.  It gives the impression that the only lives that the left really wants to fight for are those who either have killed people (murderers) or want to kill people (terrorists). I know, that's a cheap shot but it does strike me as odd that the kind of same people who will camp outside a prison to protest the execution of a convicted murderer have contempt for the people who want to keep Terry alive.

I am a strong believer in individual choice.  If Terry truly would have wanted to die this way, then I am all for that.  I am just not convinced that that is the case based on the publicly available evidence.  And if we're going to choose death as the default when someone can't keep themselves alive on their own, then that takes us down a slippery slope that I'm not sure people want to go.


Comments (Page 2)
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on Mar 28, 2005
Tell me how much right does he have to live when he uses his God-given time to try have his wife killed. There was a time threshhold where the parents would have been able to do something about it


Sorry your wrong. No threshold exsisted. As long as Terri and Michael stayed married there was NOTHING her parents could do. Guardianship via marriage trumps blood EVERY time!


If anyone tries to kill my kids, the amount of relevant-to-the-case-dead would surpass Custer's final blunder. The hospital would be awash in policemen or lawyer or evil-husband blood. Anyone who would try keep me from giving aid to my child would and should be put down with no more remorse and thought than banging a nail on it's head.


And just how would this help? You'd end up either dead or in jail. Then who would watch over your children? Your talking moronic nonsense!
on Mar 28, 2005

When Tom DeLay chose to end his father's life in 1988, the affair was conducted quietly and the decsion made only by the family. Tom DeLay's father was a 65-year old contractor injured in an accident. True, Charles DeLay was on intravenous and breathing assistance. And it is also true that the DaLay family made their difficult decision based on medical advice from professionals. But ultimately, the decision was based on what the spouse of the injured man thought would be his wishes:

You can't compare situations because in the first case, the family was united on the issue. And the subject was literally on life support.

In this case, you have a dispute over who should the legal guardian be.  The husband of a couple of years who has long since moved on, had children with another woman or the parents of the child.

When in doubt on the person's wishes then the law, as already written, should be enforced and that law is that we do not execute severely disabled people.

I happen to support assisted suicide. If someone WANTS to end their life then they should have the right to do so.  But we don't know what Terry wanted. Therefore, we are creating a precedent -- if we don't know for sure what a mentally disabled person wants, then the state can have them executed through starvation.

In the case of Tom Delay's father, if his father's wife wanted him to be kept on life support do you not think he would have been kept on life support? And again, I want to stress, the two cases aren't comparable but despite that, you can still be pretty darn sure that if any family member with power of attorney wanted him kept alive he would have been kept alive and that's in the case where you have a guy completely on life support, not someone who simply can't feed themselves.

on Mar 28, 2005
Since we all know where I stand on this, it is about the law.. but as I have said many times here, NO WHERE IN ANY STATEMENT MADE FROM CREEP HUSBAND DID terry say " I want to be starved to death" no where.
on Mar 28, 2005
this case has really upset me as i am older person with poor health.waiting for tests to be completed to find out whether i am going thru 3rd round of cancer.i am signing a living will within the next couple of weeks that no treatment is allowed if i am unconscious.
no IV's,no resuscitations,no tubes,nothing.there will be no permission for any doctor to even decide anything.the horror of laying as terri scares me so bad that i would much prefer the starvation.the thought that lawmakers are going to interfere in family decisions like this is unbelievable.the judges had no personal interest in the way he decided so i cant see why people are criticizing the whole legal court system.it worked as it is designed to do
br3n
on Mar 28, 2005

legal court system.it worked as it is designed to do

Oh, so the legal system forces torture on innocent people?  Then it is time to rethink the judicial system.  For anyone that advocates torture as humane is no better than Nazi Germany.

on Mar 28, 2005
Dr. Guy, you are of course entitled to your opinion, but I respectfully disagree with the use of the word "torture." I Googled "Effects of discontuing forced feeding" and one of the first articles that I found was "Withholding nutrition at the end of life:Clinical and ethical issues" from the Cleveland Clinic Journal of Medicine, authored by Jacquelyn Slomka, PhD, RN, Assistant Professor, The University of Texas Health Science Center at Houston. You can view it yourself at http://www.ccjm.org/pdffiles/Slomka603.pdf (PDF format, so you need Acrobat.)

Conclusion: Forgoing nutrition and hydration near the end of life leads to greater patient comfort in many instances.

I don't expect agreement, I assume that you have valid reasons and supporting evidence for your opinion, but at least acknowledge that the topic is open to debate.

And yes, the court system works as intended. We have laws governing which party has the deciding vote in situations such as this. Spouse for spouse and parents for minor children is the law. Brad, that was exactly the point that I was making in my post. You asked "if his father's wife wanted him to be kept on life support do you not think he would have been kept on life support?" No, I think that it was her decision to make, just as it is Terry Schiavo's husband's decision to make. The law doesn't say "Unless the spouse in question is a louse." (And by the way, I think that is exactly what he is. No offense to the rest of the lice out there.)

But lets get back to the data, as we know it: 1- She is in a persistent, vegatative state. That hasn't changed. The evidence to the contrary presented by the parents is not believable to me and the medical evidence to the contrary has proved scanty. 2- The medical professionals involved in the case agree with the proposed euthanasia. (Call it what you will, it is euthanasia.) I have to think that the doctors that have treated her know more about her condition than I do. 3- All the focus on starvation is moot. Would anyone's opinion change if an intentional overdose of a sedative was proposed? I don't think so.

The major issue, to me, about taking the decision making away from doctor's and the courts is that it sets a precedent that we will have to live with for some time. As I pointed out, I am concerned mostly with that precedent, especially regarding Roe v. Wade. That precedent is precisely why groups such as National Right to Life have taken such a strong stance on this issue.
on Mar 28, 2005
What's ironic is if Terry were a convicted murderer, one could almost imagine the far left out in force protesting on the other side. It gives the impression that the only lives that the left really wants to fight for are those who either have killed people (murderers) or want to kill people (terrorists). I know, that's a cheap shot but it does strike me as odd that the kind of same people who will camp outside a prison to protest the execution of a convicted murderer have contempt for the people who want to keep Terry alive.


Exactly.
on Mar 28, 2005

Dr. Guy, you are of course entitled to your opinion, but I respectfully disagree with the use of the word "torture." I Googled "Effects of discontuing forced feeding" and one of the first articles that I found was "Withholding nutrition at the end of life:Clinical and ethical issues" from the Cleveland Clinic Journal of Medicine, authored by Jacquelyn Slomka, PhD, RN, Assistant Professor, The University of Texas Health Science Center at Houston. You can view it yourself at http://www.ccjm.org/pdffiles/Slomka603.pdf (PDF format, so you need Acrobat.)

Why?  Did she starve herself to death?  The truth is they just dont know.  And dead men (and women) tell no tales.  How many of these articles did you see a year ago?  it is only the ghouls trying to salve their conscious with their ghoulish decision.

But I turn it back on you.  WHy would they give her morphine if it was painless?  because it is not.  We all know that.  God created a complex being that would fight with everything in its arsenal to live.  And hunger was an early and terrible taker of human life, as it is legislated against in all 50 states to this day.

For every living creature except people.

if Starvation is so easy and noble, why the hell do we give a damn about starving kids in Africa?  Or anywhere else?

You can google to your hearts content and you will find both opinions in equal number.  Google ranks them on hits.  perhaps that is number one for the simple reason that so many know they are torturing and killing an innocent life.  And want to be able to sleep at night.  They will. Ghouls never have a problem with conscious.  They make it up as they go along.

on Mar 28, 2005

Spouse for spouse and parents for minor children is the law.

You dare say that on this day when the Supremes decided parents have no rights with minors?  Are you just playing stupid?  I sure hope so!

on Mar 28, 2005

1- She is in a persistent, vegatative state. That hasn't changed. The evidence to the contrary presented by the parents is not believable to me and the medical evidence to the contrary has proved scanty.

No, that is opinion not fact.  I can cite as many experts that says she has cognitive awareness and feels joy and sorrow!  Why do you keep defending the indefensible?  I dont know, but that is the rub!  No one knows!  So if we dont know, we just kill them?

2- The medical professionals involved in the case agree with the proposed euthanasia. (Call it what you will, it is euthanasia.)

Euthanasia is when you kill someone, humanely that has no hope of living and is in extreme pain.  Neither applies here.  So that is just a lie.

3- All the focus on starvation is moot. Would anyone's opinion change if an intentional overdose of a sedative was proposed?

My GOD Man!  Have you not read anything I have written?  Please, dont make a fool of yourself with such an assinine statement again!  That is EXACTLY what I have been advocating and yelling!  And yes, not all, but many that abhor this ghoulish endeavor are screaming for exactly that!  We know her bastard of a husband is going to kill her no matter what!  Starvation is NOT DEATH WITH DIGNITY. PERIOD

it is cruel and inhumane and in this case just a ghoulish delight for a man so shallow that he is beneath contempt.

Look , there is no point in you arguing any further.   I just showed where you were wrong on all counts.  I dont believe you are a ghoul, but you fell into their trap and while your intentions are good, your methods are not.

Dont lecture me when you have not done your homework.  We are not so far apart.  I just dont believe in torture.  For People or animals.

on Mar 28, 2005

No, I think that it was her decision to make, just as it is Terry Schiavo's husband's decision to make. The law doesn't say "Unless the spouse in question is a louse." (And by the way, I think that is exactly what he is. No offense to the rest of the lice out there.)

The issue isn't whether he's a louse or not.  The issue is whether he should have life and death decision making over a woman who he is only "married" by the most strict legal definition.  He's already had 2 children with another woman that he lives with.  He's not the person who should be making this decision.

For me, this all boils down to a question of what the state's DEFAULT ruling should be.  Condemned killers get more benefit of the doubt than this woman has.  We don't know with any real certainty what this woman's wishes are.  Therefore, the default ruling should be for life. She's not on life support. She simply can't feed herself. 

We don't know what Terry wants. We do know where the parents want. Why are we so quick to kill off this woman?

I mean look, as a hard carrying member of the culture of death I'm generally pro-death. There are MILLIONS of people on this planet that are as if not more disabled than Terry is. Why not off them?  Like I said, we spend billions on providing food to Americans too stupid to figure out how to pay for their own food. Why not cut them off?  I hear it's a painless way to go..

on Mar 28, 2005
I think that you are so right with all the examples you showed. I know I would not want to be kept alive if I had to be kept on life support, but at the same time I dont want to starve to death.
on Mar 28, 2005
Spouse for spouse and parents for minor children is the law.


Ignorance, Stupidity, or just a lie... You decide...

I have personally treated & transported spouses against the wishes of the other spouse. Why? Because, with a lack of a signed, and legally authorized "Do Not Resuscitate Order" or "Living Will", if I had have complied with the spouses wishes I would have been breaking the law! "Abandonment", "Negligence" and "Malpractice", would each be used in the charges against me, my partner, my ambulance service, the city or county (if I worked for a municiple service) and my medical control physician.

It is plain and simple. Without a signed and legally authorized document, any wishes are "hearsay" and not acceptable.

Of course, unless you're a judge who would rather play politics than interpret the law.

WHy would they give her morphine if it was painless?


Morphine could be used for a few of reasons. 1) To relieve pain (of course), 2) To relieve stress on the heart, 3) If the drip rate were set high; to depress the heart (thus stopping it faster)....

Either way, it doesn't make the liars look good. If #1 is right, then you make a great point. If #2? Starva... er... I mean, "being denied nutrition and hydration" cause extreme stress on all cells of the body (including myocardial cells), so why administer a med to relieve stress to just some? If #3 is right then the whole idea of "not killing her" is proven a lie.

Good Question!!
on Mar 28, 2005

Either way, it doesn't make the liars look good. If #1 is right, then you make a great point. If #2? Starva... er... I mean, "being denied nutrition and hydration" cause extreme stress on all cells of the body (including myocardial cells), so why administer a med to relieve stress to just some? If #3 is right then the whole idea of "not killing her" is proven a lie.

I know that is from experience, but it lends so much to the debate, at least here.  And for that I thank you.

on Mar 28, 2005
Yes if you can't live on your own without assistance from a machine and there is no immediate (i.e. soon!) hope of you coming out of it and not requiring it, the support should be withdrawn. Should we let them starve to death? No, we should give them a huge overdoes of a pain killer and be humane about it, but they shouldn't be kept alive. Certainly not for 15 years.

If you're mentally incapable of feeding yourself, the government shouldn't help you. If someone wants to volunteer, so be it, but leave me and everyone else out of your value system. It isn't the government's job to do your bidding, it's the government's job to ensure that you're free to do your own bidding on your own terms without interfering with other people's ability to do the same.

Yes, if you fuck up your life to the point where you can pay for food, then you shouldn't be getting it from the government. If people want to donate money freely and of their own will to organizations that feed these people, that's your CHOICE. It however is not MY CHOICE to spend money on losers that got to the point where they can't feed themselves through sheer stupidity. (anyone can work behind a counter at 7/11 and pay for a couple of happy meals a day, little own a place to live) And just like cable companies can deductively bill, the government shouldn't be able to either. If I don't use it, I shouldn't have to pay for it. (and before you say that I choose to pay for it because I'm an American/Canadian, that's like arguing to black during the 60s that they don't have any freedom and will always be enslaved simply because they choose to live in the US and if they don't like it they should go back to Africa. Taking my money without my permission and without providing a service to ME is theft. That you value charity is fine. That's your value system, it is not mine. If you want to pay for it, go ahead, no one is stopping you. However you don't get the right to force your values on me and force me to pay for your value system. (which is the scariest part of this whole thing..... freakin religious right...)

Life is not the government's interest. The government's interest (and this is directly from the founding fathers) is to ensure the safety of it's citizens from threats both foreign and abroad. I.e. To ensure that you are safe to live your life freely without the interference of government and physical violence from others (government or otherwise). The most fundamental right you can possibly have is the right to die. And that means the right to choose to die without the interference of government, and the right to have someone else assist you in your right to die. Terry, whatever her horrible state married this man, whether you like him or not. (the signs are mixed on him... see ars technica article on the subject) As a result, she put her trust in him to act on her behalf in case something like this happened, and thus chose him as her decision maker if she couldn't make decisions for herself. Thus she has spoken, through her choice to marry the man just as assuredly as if she had had 20 beers and decided to drive and then killed someone. Whether you like the case or not, whether you like a society that is free, you have to respect freedom, because if you do not, it is only a matter of time before it is your values that are being oppressed in the name of morality, it is your life that is being dictated and it is your life that gets burned up in a gas chamber. Freedom is a two way street. You neither get to interfere with other's ability to harm themselves, speak their mind, or otherwise act without physically harming others. As a result you get to expect that others are held by the same principle. Freedom is an absolute. You can't be free at one moment because others happen to agree with you and not free the next because a large, vocal group that happens to have the ear of the president (i.e. right wing religious nuts) says that your position is evil. Chose: Do you want to live in a country that is ruled by religion like Iran or Syria or any number of other evil nations, or do you want to live free, and accept that there are a lot of people that have different values than you and no matter how much you don't like that, you are not free to interfere with them unless they physically, without permission, harm another.

And keep in mind. This is a woman that on a CT scan shows absolutely no brain activity beyond autonomic functions. Her brain has atrophied. She feels nothing, little own pain. Thus however distasteful it is that we allow someone to die by starvation because we don't have the guts to do it humanely, it isn't hurting her. It's putting to rest a body that holds nothing of what Terry once was, because her mind is no longer there.
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