Brad Wardell's views about technology, politics, religion, world affairs, and all sorts of politically incorrect topics.
It's about the law
Published on March 28, 2005 By Draginol In Politics

As far as the law is concerned, it has spoken. Many courts have heard Terry Schiavo's case and concluded that Terry would not have wanted to be kept alive through artificial means.

That is what this case boils down to. People have the right to decide whether they want to be kept alive via artificial means.  And the courts determined that there was sufficient evidence through testimony that Terry would not have wanted to be kept alive this way.

However, it's the "evidence" that is problematic here in my opinion.  She had no living will. Hopefully this incident will encourage people to start making living wills so that the judicial system can't be screwed around like this.  Terry's parents say she would not want to be starved to death.  Terry's husband says she would.

In my view, the word of Terry's husband is meaningless. He's moved on.  He has two children with another women.  As soon as he had a child with another woman, his "guardianship" rights should be reverted to the parents.  And the parents want her to be kept alive.  She's not on life support, she simply is incapable of feeding herself.

That is where I think the focus of the debate exists.  Frankly, we really don't know what Terry wanted.  I know I would not want to be kept alive via artificial means but on the other hand, I don't know if I'd like the idea of being starved to death over a two week period. I think when most people think of being taken off "life support" they picture themselves in a coma without the ability to breath on their own. 

That's why this case is so compelling.  We really don't know what Terry would have wanted and so many people feel that the default option should be life and not starvation.

Anyone who has ever worked in a group home for the mentally disabled can tell you that there are literally hundreds of thousands of people who would die without what would seem to most people extraordinary intervention.  She we starve them to death too?

In fact, why stop there?  How about the people are incapable of feeding themselves without government subsidies? Billions are spent providing food to people who somehow have managed to screw up their lives to the point that they can't afford to pay for their own food.  Should we stop providing them food?

What's ironic is if Terry were a convicted murderer, one could almost imagine the far left out in force protesting on the other side.  It gives the impression that the only lives that the left really wants to fight for are those who either have killed people (murderers) or want to kill people (terrorists). I know, that's a cheap shot but it does strike me as odd that the kind of same people who will camp outside a prison to protest the execution of a convicted murderer have contempt for the people who want to keep Terry alive.

I am a strong believer in individual choice.  If Terry truly would have wanted to die this way, then I am all for that.  I am just not convinced that that is the case based on the publicly available evidence.  And if we're going to choose death as the default when someone can't keep themselves alive on their own, then that takes us down a slippery slope that I'm not sure people want to go.


Comments (Page 4)
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on Mar 30, 2005
"Don't you think that it's a bit blind to think the courts infallible, and the husband incapable of lying?"

I think it is a bit blind to think that the courts cannot possibly have been right and the husband could not possibly have been saying the truth in this case. Read the comments above. Do you think anyone gave him the benefit of the doubt and didn't assume he was a crook?


"Sorry but your wrong! NOBODY heard Terri say anything. Nobody except Michael that is. And by ALL rules of evidence that is hearsay."

I am not wrong. I didn't say Terri said anything (to the court anyway). I was saying that Michael _IS_ her legal guardian and as such legally entitled to tell the courts what Terri's wishes were. The rules of evidence do not say that what a legal guardian says is hearsay. In fact I think you should not tell anybody that this was so, not only because it isn't true, but also because in this case it makes matters only worse when you do anything that creates more hatred among those who believe that Michael is a crook.


"Funny that the therapy was disontinued right after Michael won the court case."

And again the witch hunt appears. What is "funny" about this? In fact, why is it so important to make everything sound as if Michael was a crook? Incidentally, the two statements, yours and mine, might very well describe the same event. But I didn't include the word "funny" in my description of the situation.

"Not one dime of what was supposed to go for Terri's care was ever spent in that fashion."

Says who? The Wikipedia article (which might not be the perfect source, but it is a lot more precise that what I found elsewhere) says the following:


Hospice staff describe Mr. Schiavo as a very supportive husband who berated nurses for not taking better care of his wife; in 1994 the hospice attempted (unsuccessfully) to get a restraining order against him because he was demanding more attention for his wife at the expense of other patients' care. Due to the attention she has received in the 15 years she has been bedridden, Terri Schiavo has never developed any bedsores.

Raising the issue of a possible conflict of interest is the fact that Mr. Schiavo stands to inherit the remainder of Mrs. Schiavo's malpractice settlement upon her death. Mr. Schiavo has publicly responded to this charge by claiming that of the original $1,050,000 awarded in the malpractice suit, less than $50,000 is left, the rest having been spent under a judge's supervision on medical care for Mrs. Schiavo and the ongoing legal battle. This, however, is disputed. He had also had a contract drafted stating that should the Schindlers refrain from any further legal action, he will donate whatever his inheritance may be to charity. The Schindlers refused the offer.


Now, I am not claiming that I am privy to the information that it is definitely true that the money was spend under a judge's supervision on medical care for Mrs. Schiavo. But I am wondering why you are so sure that "not one dime" was ever spent in that fashion. Can you point me to the source?


"Saddam Hussein"

We are at Saddam already? Isn't that a bit quick? After all, Michael has only been the most evil man who ever lived for a few weeks now.


on Mar 30, 2005
"live our her life mentally handicap"

Draginol,

according to her doctors that wasn't an option. A persistent vegetative state is not a mental handicap you live with. That is why Terri's parents (want to) doubt that it is true.

The question here is not whether Terri would want to live her life mentally handicapped or rather die, but whether she would have wanted to be nominally alive but unconscious and unaware for several more years or rather die.

I believe that changing the subject from the second question to the first adds the wish that the woman should recover to the equation (and nothing else) but that it does cloud the issue and changes the facts.


In general:

It makes us feel good to wish for Terri to recover and it is even better that there is somebody we can blame for her death, but if doing so has to involve changing the facts and spreading rumours about Michael's evils, then doing so, I propose, is no longer acceptable.

on Mar 30, 2005
OK
2 things I disagree with

One: she is being tortured byt starving to death
Two: Most doctors who have examined Schiavo have concluded that she is in a persistent vegetative state

One more thing that is inportant to understand: Married sposes have the last word, not reative or parents (in other words, he might not even have NEEDED witnesses to Ms Schiavo saying she would not want to live like this... his word was enough)


A persistent vegetative state is not handicapped as far as I know. Her condition is not a type of severe brain-damaged that accored by an accident (and this accident should be investigater further).

While Ms Schiavo's parents say that she is responcive, no doctor (not even the court doctors) have concluded the need to say she is not in a vegetative state nor any hope she would come out of it. They concluded that she is gone. KEEP IN MIND that there is, as far as I know, any law that states that persistent vegetative state is considered handicapped.

So there you have it. If you wonder why the judge's hands were tied it was because:

A) Husbands and wifes get the last word (they are the legal guardian of each other)
They could find no evendince that she was not in persistent vegetative state or that she would come out of it and this state is not considered handicapped. (she didn't get this way from old age, nor was she born this way)


As you can see, the judge didn't have much room to go on. The criminal investigation of Mr. Schiavo was 'inconclusive' (which means there was just not ENOUGH evidence to bring to trial).

Heck, as wrong and stupid as it sounds, him 'just remebering' that she didn't want to live this way doesn't mean anything to the court because he is the guardian.



Becuase of all of this MY CONCLUSION is that there needs to be a change of law (not a special law just for Terri Schiavo to save her life). This law will detail how future cases will be judged. The fact that he remembered 2 years later should be taken into account (but currently it doesn;t matter). also taken into account should be his lack of wanting to try to bring her back, the fact that he broke his marriage vows by having an affiar with another woman and having children by her (of which totally concludes that he is with her not Terri).

These facts should have been acceptable in the court of law, but currently it is not. While he could say she died 15 years ago and he is trying to carry out her wishes (but obviously could not hold his life at bay until her body passes), the reality is that he did not clearly try to save her, he moved on almost immediatly after her 'death' (of which would be ok if it wasn't for the fact that her body was still alive and there were many things he could have done to try to bring her back) and has not excepted any possibility of treatment to see if she can be saved.



The reality is that she is considered persistent vegetative state (not handicapped) and her husband (however wrong he is) was at the time of injury her husband.

Being that there are NO current laws that detail how something like this would be judged, we have the conclusion. It is also the reason why the Supereme Court did not take it up. There was no error in fact or law


Change the law, this is the lesson here.
on Mar 30, 2005
Says who? The Wikipedia article (which might not be the perfect source, but it is a lot more precise that what I found elsewhere) says the following:


Hospice staff describe Mr. Schiavo as a very supportive husband who berated nurses for not taking better care of his wife; in 1994 the hospice attempted (unsuccessfully) to get a restraining order against him because he was demanding more attention for his wife at the expense of other patients' care. Due to the attention she has received in the 15 years she has been bedridden, Terri Schiavo has never developed any bedsores.

Raising the issue of a possible conflict of interest is the fact that Mr. Schiavo stands to inherit the remainder of Mrs. Schiavo's malpractice settlement upon her death. Mr. Schiavo has publicly responded to this charge by claiming that of the original $1,050,000 awarded in the malpractice suit, less than $50,000 is left, the rest having been spent under a judge's supervision on medical care for Mrs. Schiavo and the ongoing legal battle. This, however, is disputed. He had also had a contract drafted stating that should the Schindlers refrain from any further legal action, he will donate whatever his inheritance may be to charity. The Schindlers refused the offer.




Does anybody have anything to say against this? I don't know if it is true or not.

Also, many state starving and going without water is a painful way to go, but everything I have found says that is not so (especially for those who are ill). Plus, she is getting pain killers.

Anybody disagree?

What I don't like is that they take the food away from her and then say 'your on your own'. I think we all know what the final result of this is. Instead of the whole starve and thrust (with the off chance it COULD be painful) why not end it? I think it is still cruel and unusual to let it drag on her. No one is throwing her out the hosptial, no one is rejecting her from other hospitals... why can't she just stay where she is at instead of the long dragged out case? Why not just leave it be or let her go peacefuly with an injection?



This case really bothers me. The law needs to be changed. Legal guardianship rights need to be revamped or reviewed.
on Mar 30, 2005

Terri's husband is the legal guardian and thus entitled to tell the judges what Terri's wishes were. He was apparently present in the court room. It was NOT hearsay.

Hearsay is defined ast relating what another said.  MS related that TS would not want to live that way.  That is hearsay.  Pure and simple.

on Mar 30, 2005

However, I would not be surprised if Michael Schiavo, the evil bastard, was attacked or even murdered soon.

That would speak poorly of our society though.

No more so than how the whole Ghoulish episode with Terry Schiavo would.  In fact less as he would not be tortured to death.

on Mar 30, 2005
First time at this site. Great article. I agree and find it strange that a 'he said she said' could have so much power in our court system. This indeed could become a very slippery slope for our society.
on Mar 30, 2005
"Does anybody have anything to say against this?"

Many here have said a lot against it, but they didn't mention how they knew it was wrong.


"Hearsay is defined ast relating what another said.  MS related that TS would not want to live that way.  That is hearsay.  Pure and simple."

What a legal guardian says is not hearsay. Pure and simple. At least I have never heard that it is common practice to view it as such. You are apparently more informed than I am or at least obviously believe that you are. Would you mind telling me how you know that what a legal guardian says is considered hearsay?


"In fact less as he would not be tortured to death"

How do you define torture that it includes a victim that is unconscious and unaware? And how do you reconcile your opinion that this is torture with the doctors saying that it isn't?


Perry G. Fine, the vice president of medical affairs at the National Hospice and Palliative Care Organization, was quoted in the Los Angeles Times as saying that "What my patients have told me over the last 25 years is that when they stop eating and drinking, there's nothing unpleasant about it. In fact, it can be quite blissful and euphoric...the word 'starve' is so emotionally loaded. People equate that with the hunger pains they feel or the thirst they feel after a long, hot day of hiking. To jump from that to a person who has an end-stage illness is a gigantic leap."



In fact, I think your entire opinion is based on some assumptions that are simply not true.
on Mar 30, 2005

What a legal guardian says is not hearsay. Pure and simple. At least I have never heard that it is common practice to view it as such. You are apparently more informed than I am or at least obviously believe that you are. Would you mind telling me how you know that what a legal guardian says is considered hearsay?

A death bed statement is not Hearsay.  Anything not stated by the individual in any other context is hearsay.  While he may have the right (dubious one at that) to decide for her how she is going to be tortured, why then did he even bring hearsay into the argument (court testimony).  He is arguing out of both sides of his mouth, and you are wrong in this case.  You can only argue that he has supreme power over her of life and death as the guardian, not that his testimony of her wishes is not hearsay.

on Mar 30, 2005

How do you define torture that it includes a victim that is unconscious and unaware? And how do you reconcile your opinion that this is torture with the doctors saying that it isn't?

That is your opinion, and not shared by everyone.  Besides, the doctors disagree with you, otherwise why would they have given her morphine? 

After you starve yourself to death, you come back and blog how painless it is.  I will beleive you then.

on Mar 30, 2005
A) Husbands and wifes get the last word (they are the legal guardian of each other)


Thanks for completely ignoring my post. Husbands and wives DO NOT have the first, last, or middle word on medical care.

Again, I have taken and treated patients AGAINST THE WISHES OF A SPOUSE!! Why? Because it would be illegal for me to follow verbal wishes. Without a written, and legally authorized Living Will, the law says TREAT THE PATIENT!
on Mar 30, 2005
Perhaps if conservatives claimed Terry was a terrorist or a murderer then liberals would start supporting keeping her alive..
on Mar 30, 2005
"You can only argue that he has supreme power over her of life and death as the guardian, not that his testimony of her wishes is not hearsay."

As I said, it would be new to me if the word of a legal guardian was considered hearsay. So many here seem to know that this is so, but do not provide any information on how they know. It also seems odd that even though, I understand, hearsay is not usually accepted as evidence, the court did accept it as did the governor and the president.

So presumably it is fact that the word of a legal guardian is considered hearsay and none of the legal professionals have found out? Or is hearsay considered evidence in such a case? Please, I asked before, be more precise.


"That is your opinion, and not shared by everyone.  Besides, the doctors disagree with you, otherwise why would they have given her morphine?"

It is shared by the doctors who have actually seen her and treated her. I don't know why they would give her morphine. In contrast to so many here I am neither a medical professional nor do I believe that I know more than the doctors who treated Terri. If they say that she is unconscious and unaware because she is in a persistent vegetative state that is what I know. If you know they were wrong and that I am, please provide your source so I can work with the information. As for the morphine, I can only assume that they gave it to her because her body still reacts instinctively and morphine can help keeping the reactions under control. There could be other reasons. I assume you know that the only reason can be because the doctors lied before and she is not really unconscious and unaware?


"After you starve yourself to death, you come back and blog how painless it is.  I will believe you then."

Would I be unconscious and unaware during this experiment? What could I possibly tell you about how painful or painless something was that happened while I couldn't feel anything? Do you actually realise that the part of her brain that receives the signals that produce pain is dead?

Seeing how you believe that the doctors disagree with me, did you actually read the source I gave for what I believed? Do you have a reason to believe that the source is wrong? Why?
on Mar 30, 2005
Terri's husband is the legal guardian and thus entitled to tell the judges what Terri's wishes were. He was apparently present in the court room. It was NOT hearsay.

Hearsay is defined ast relating what another said. MS related that TS would not want to live that way. That is hearsay. Pure and simple.


I'll say it again. Without another witness or "evidence" to back it up it's "hearsay".

We're in court. I say you shot someone and killed them
1. no body is found
2. no weapon is found
3. no one else saw anything

What I've said would be ruled as inadmissable because it's hearsay. Look it up or talk to a lawyer.
on Mar 30, 2005
"What I've said would be ruled as inadmissable because it's hearsay. Look it up or talk to a lawyer."

Different case. The person you are talking about is probably able to speak for himself and you are not his legal guardian. Could you perhaps come up with an explanation that takes into account the reason I have given for assuming that it is not hearsay?

Furthermore, since in this case the court has apparently accepted the evidence as given, perhaps your assumption is wrong and a lawyer might tell you same?
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