Brad Wardell's views about technology, politics, religion, world affairs, and all sorts of politically incorrect topics.
It's about the law
Published on March 28, 2005 By Draginol In Politics

As far as the law is concerned, it has spoken. Many courts have heard Terry Schiavo's case and concluded that Terry would not have wanted to be kept alive through artificial means.

That is what this case boils down to. People have the right to decide whether they want to be kept alive via artificial means.  And the courts determined that there was sufficient evidence through testimony that Terry would not have wanted to be kept alive this way.

However, it's the "evidence" that is problematic here in my opinion.  She had no living will. Hopefully this incident will encourage people to start making living wills so that the judicial system can't be screwed around like this.  Terry's parents say she would not want to be starved to death.  Terry's husband says she would.

In my view, the word of Terry's husband is meaningless. He's moved on.  He has two children with another women.  As soon as he had a child with another woman, his "guardianship" rights should be reverted to the parents.  And the parents want her to be kept alive.  She's not on life support, she simply is incapable of feeding herself.

That is where I think the focus of the debate exists.  Frankly, we really don't know what Terry wanted.  I know I would not want to be kept alive via artificial means but on the other hand, I don't know if I'd like the idea of being starved to death over a two week period. I think when most people think of being taken off "life support" they picture themselves in a coma without the ability to breath on their own. 

That's why this case is so compelling.  We really don't know what Terry would have wanted and so many people feel that the default option should be life and not starvation.

Anyone who has ever worked in a group home for the mentally disabled can tell you that there are literally hundreds of thousands of people who would die without what would seem to most people extraordinary intervention.  She we starve them to death too?

In fact, why stop there?  How about the people are incapable of feeding themselves without government subsidies? Billions are spent providing food to people who somehow have managed to screw up their lives to the point that they can't afford to pay for their own food.  Should we stop providing them food?

What's ironic is if Terry were a convicted murderer, one could almost imagine the far left out in force protesting on the other side.  It gives the impression that the only lives that the left really wants to fight for are those who either have killed people (murderers) or want to kill people (terrorists). I know, that's a cheap shot but it does strike me as odd that the kind of same people who will camp outside a prison to protest the execution of a convicted murderer have contempt for the people who want to keep Terry alive.

I am a strong believer in individual choice.  If Terry truly would have wanted to die this way, then I am all for that.  I am just not convinced that that is the case based on the publicly available evidence.  And if we're going to choose death as the default when someone can't keep themselves alive on their own, then that takes us down a slippery slope that I'm not sure people want to go.


Comments (Page 5)
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on Mar 30, 2005
Would I be unconscious and unaware during this experiment? What could I possibly tell you about how painful or painless something was that happened while I couldn't feel anything? Do you actually realise that the part of her brain that receives the signals that produce pain is dead?


No, you would have the mind of a 6 month old, but you would be aware and awake. That is what you are asking for.

Do you realize that NO ONE, not even her doctor has contended that the part of her brain that receives pain is dead? Why? because they dont know! And neither do you.
on Mar 30, 2005
As I said, it would be new to me if the word of a legal guardian was considered hearsay.


Guess it is new. have you heard of Findlaw?

It is hearsay without documentation. period. What was decided by the court was not that she wished to die, but that Michael Schiavo is her legal guardian. Her wishes were just his lame excuse for public consumption. It seems to have worked too.
on Mar 30, 2005
I don't know why they would give her morphine.


Check out ParaTed2k's reason. He is an EMT and closer to a Doc than you. maybe you can learn something.
on Mar 30, 2005
"What I've said would be ruled as inadmissable because it's hearsay. Look it up or talk to a lawyer."


WRONG answer! If you had *read* what I wrote you would have understood that I was refering to a murder case. In which case there is NO one to speak. Also the *rules of evidence* do NOT change from trial to trial. They stay the same. Period!
on Mar 30, 2005
As I said, it would be new to me if the word of a legal guardian was considered hearsay.


The Wife Killer, Michael Schiavo may be her "guardian" but does not have a power of attorney for medical, or a living will. Therefore, he has no real authority to act in her name and, anything he heard his wife say is HEARSAY!


Dr. Guy, thanks for the vote of confidence, and for paying attention. I was beginning to wonder if my posts only appeared on my computer! ;~D

Of course, I kind of wish I could magically make "anonymous users" and otherwise "snipers" disappear from my computer. lol.
on Mar 30, 2005
Hearsay is defined ast relating what another said. MS related that TS would not want to live that way. That is hearsay. Pure and simple.


Nevertheless he is her husband and court follow what they say. Period. From money to children that had been how it goes.
All he needed was to prove that he was her husband. The court suspects that he SHOULD know his wife and what she would want.

Also keep in mind that testimony, eye witnesses and other such testimony of a person who saw or heard something can be included as evidence.

Thanks for completely ignoring my post. Husbands and wives DO NOT have the first, last, or middle word on medical care.

Again, I have taken and treated patients AGAINST THE WISHES OF A SPOUSE!! Why? Because it would be illegal for me to follow verbal wishes. Without a written, and legally authorized Living Will, the law says TREAT THE PATIENT!


When? If they are just sick? Did a doctor say there is nothing I can do for her? Did a court say there is nothing that can be done too? You keep forgetting that there are doctors who have seen her a given there testimony. It is and had been concluded that she will stay in this state and that this state is not considered handicapped.

Now it is up to her husband, the person she married, to decide because the court assumes that he should know best.
That's it. Sometime it works and sometimes it doesn't. Most people do not understand what a marriade person legally means. I don't pretend to fully kow myself, but I know that. If I had kids by another woman and those kids had family, she would be the one who would get the kids and the courts woudld side with her not kids family.

This has been going on for quite some time.



I see know one has directly gone against doctors saying that peopl who starve to death while sick end life in pain.




Personally, since they prety much decided her fate considering that they feel so much that she will stay in this state, why don't they just end it? Why let her drag on like this? Where is the humanity in letting her just slowly die?

I don't agree with the judgement of Terri's fate, but when people wonder why it happened or come up with reasons that are not likely true according to current knowledge in medical science and current law it just seems wrong.


Anyone here who was married and on there death bed can be 'silenced' by their spouse when the doctors agree there is nothing that can be done or there is a slim chance of servival (or a large chance or permanate vegetativness).


I personally would like the poster and other who tend to be more intellegent on conversations like this to respond then just saying 'you dummy' or 'buy a clue'.

I want to understand why this happened and what can be done in the future to prevent it again.
on Mar 30, 2005
I would also like to remind many here that the war on crime had many people inprisoned based on one witness.

Many go to jail based on one witness.

Many bribe and kill the one witness.

The one witness runs out of town....

The bottom line is that he was married to her and that makes his word have more wieght than her parents.


Do you wish to have your parents word over you when you are unable to speak? You better write a will. This is been how courts have been acting on such cases and others for years... maybe decades.

I didn't say it was right, but it has been happening.
on Mar 30, 2005
[quote[No, that is opinion not fact. I can cite as many experts that says she has cognitive awareness and feels joy and sorrow! Why do you keep defending the indefensible? I dont know, but that is the rub! No one knows! So if we dont know, we just kill them?

This is what I don't get: then why would the judge and the court apointed cotors say otherwise??? Why didn't the Supreme Court take the case if, in fact, the diognosis is wrong?
on Mar 31, 2005
"Why do you keep defending the indefensible? I dont know, but that is the rub! No one knows! So if we dont know, we just kill them?"


Because the alternative is to admit that they feel that some handicapped people are simply to much of a bother to feed. The alternative would be to admit it is okay to murder someone you feel isn't meeting your standards of "living".

I have been told by people on a messageboard related to this one that they felt children found to be handicapped in the womb should be aborted. This is just an extension of that same murderous attitude.
on Mar 31, 2005
This is what I don't get: then why would the judge and the court apointed cotors say otherwise??? Why didn't the Supreme Court take the case if, in fact, the diognosis is wrong?


Because ALL the times in court they werre only looking at what the idiot Greer said and NOT the actual facts.

Again, I have taken and treated patients AGAINST THE WISHES OF A SPOUSE!! Why? Because it would be illegal for me to follow verbal wishes. Without a written, and legally authorized Living Will, the law says TREAT THE PATIENT!


When? If they are just sick? Did a doctor say there is nothing I can do for her? Did a court say there is nothing that can be done too? You keep forgetting that there are doctors who have seen her a given there testimony. It is and had been concluded that she will stay in this state and that this state is not considered handicapped.


This is a "whenever"! As a paramedic he can not make the decision. That has to be made by a "medical" doctor and he'll require "proof"! Also the fact he can not pronounce someone dead on scene. That also must be done by a doctor.
on Mar 31, 2005
Thanks for completely ignoring my post. Husbands and wives DO NOT have the first, last, or middle word on medical care.

Again, I have taken and treated patients AGAINST THE WISHES OF A SPOUSE!! Why? Because it would be illegal for me to follow verbal wishes. Without a written, and legally authorized Living Will, the law says TREAT THE PATIENT!


This is what I understood to be truth. However, it appears (unfortuneately) that Florida law assigns legal guardianship to the spouse with the power to make health care decisions in the absence of a Living Will. Without a Living Will, Florida law allows health care decisions to be made for you by a court appointed guardian, your spouse, your adult child, your parent, your adult sibling, another adult relative, or a close friend - in that order.

I have been an Estate Planner for several years, providing Trusts, POA's, Living Will's, et. .al. and in most of the states out west, what is occuring in Florida wouldn't fly without those directives. It is not uncommon for courts to assign a Guardian when there is no directive nominating one, just as it is not uncommon for courts to create a will (with asset distribution) if an individual passes without one. I think what miff's me most, is why Terry's husband wouldn't allow the parents to be the Guardians (something is suspect about that, in my mind). What is particularly tragic, is that a few pieces of paper with some legal jargon, would have prevented this whole debacle (either Health Care Power of Attorney, Nomination of Guardian or a Living Will).

Does anyone know if the parents attempted to get Guardianship of Terry when she was still somewhat cognizant?
on Mar 31, 2005
It depends on what State you are in. If Terri had been in Illinois the outcome here would likely be different.
on Mar 31, 2005
"Again, I have taken and treated patients AGAINST THE WISHES OF A SPOUSE!! Why? Because it would be illegal for me to follow verbal wishes. Without a written, and legally authorized Living Will, the law says TREAT THE PATIENT!"

So I take it for you a court decision is the same as a "verbal wish"? That is odd.

"Because ALL the times in court they werre only looking at what the idiot Greer said and NOT the actual facts."

Incidentally, the doctors who treated Terri also said that she was in a "persistent vegetative state". Do you consider them among those who looked at what the idiot Greer said and not the actual facts?

Unfortunately this forum doesn't see to like Web links very much. I tried to post a link to a medical article that explains Terri's case. The Wikipedia article links to it (or did link to it, depending on the current vandalism status). Our emotions make us believe that a human body that moves must be a human body that experiences. That this is not so is known to the medical profession but not often subject to press coverage.

Now, for all the statements in this forum regarding all sorts of "experts" (referred to but not named or quoted) it does seem that any expert opinion that I can find agrees with Terri's doctors findings that her brain was indeed nearly completely dead and beyond recovery. The choice was never between life and death but between a certain level of dignity for Terri or a media spectacle. Unfortunately the result was the spectacle.

I heard it said once that medicine is also about accepting terminal cases so that there is enough strength left when there is a patient whom you can actually help. For the sake of the supporters of keeping Terri's body alive (as opposed to keeping Terri alive, that option was long gone when the aware part of her brain died) and for the sake of their ideal that life should be preserved, I can only hope that they now focus their energies on cases where money and action can actually help, where there is no man to vilify, but a patient to help.

There must be such cases in the same hospital.

on Mar 31, 2005
Then, apparently, a handicapped spouse is property, to be kept or discarded at will. A shameful statement on America's insipid ability to validate any excess.
on Mar 31, 2005
BakerStreet:
I see what your saying after reading it over again, but I still don't get then why the court decided in his favor? Why did court appointed doctors say she will not come out of this state? Why won't the supreme court take the case or even direct the lower court to re-value the case?

Why, with the starving and lack of water issue, is the first of many findings fte Googling it say that she will most likely feel no discomfort?

Is it not true, in cases like this, the spose does get the last word as the person who should know better?

Is it not true that many criminals have gone to jail based on one persons testimony?

Isn't it true that being in a persistent vegetative state is not defined as handicapped?



Listen, I don't agree with the courts desision, or the lingering of her life after they decided she is going to die either. I don't pretend to know all of the facts, if his witnesses to Terri's wishes were true, if he is lieing or whatever.

At first a read that he did not try to save her, then somewhere else I read that for almost 10 years he did.


Since this is in public court, I think I might actually go and try to get the documents. It is available I beleieve. At the very least read the briefs and the judges final decision statement.


I forget how that works... LexusNexus? Its been so long since I briefly took law class (I know when i restart school that this is going to be the subject in the law class I have to take)

The end result is, then, if it really makes so much sence that it should have gone in favor of life or more tests, then why didn't it go that way. What does the hospital say about Terri's husband and what he did during her stay. Did he call her a bitch or call in to see if the nurses were taking care of her?

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