Brad Wardell's views about technology, politics, religion, world affairs, and all sorts of politically incorrect topics.
It's about the law
Published on March 28, 2005 By Draginol In Politics

As far as the law is concerned, it has spoken. Many courts have heard Terry Schiavo's case and concluded that Terry would not have wanted to be kept alive through artificial means.

That is what this case boils down to. People have the right to decide whether they want to be kept alive via artificial means.  And the courts determined that there was sufficient evidence through testimony that Terry would not have wanted to be kept alive this way.

However, it's the "evidence" that is problematic here in my opinion.  She had no living will. Hopefully this incident will encourage people to start making living wills so that the judicial system can't be screwed around like this.  Terry's parents say she would not want to be starved to death.  Terry's husband says she would.

In my view, the word of Terry's husband is meaningless. He's moved on.  He has two children with another women.  As soon as he had a child with another woman, his "guardianship" rights should be reverted to the parents.  And the parents want her to be kept alive.  She's not on life support, she simply is incapable of feeding herself.

That is where I think the focus of the debate exists.  Frankly, we really don't know what Terry wanted.  I know I would not want to be kept alive via artificial means but on the other hand, I don't know if I'd like the idea of being starved to death over a two week period. I think when most people think of being taken off "life support" they picture themselves in a coma without the ability to breath on their own. 

That's why this case is so compelling.  We really don't know what Terry would have wanted and so many people feel that the default option should be life and not starvation.

Anyone who has ever worked in a group home for the mentally disabled can tell you that there are literally hundreds of thousands of people who would die without what would seem to most people extraordinary intervention.  She we starve them to death too?

In fact, why stop there?  How about the people are incapable of feeding themselves without government subsidies? Billions are spent providing food to people who somehow have managed to screw up their lives to the point that they can't afford to pay for their own food.  Should we stop providing them food?

What's ironic is if Terry were a convicted murderer, one could almost imagine the far left out in force protesting on the other side.  It gives the impression that the only lives that the left really wants to fight for are those who either have killed people (murderers) or want to kill people (terrorists). I know, that's a cheap shot but it does strike me as odd that the kind of same people who will camp outside a prison to protest the execution of a convicted murderer have contempt for the people who want to keep Terry alive.

I am a strong believer in individual choice.  If Terry truly would have wanted to die this way, then I am all for that.  I am just not convinced that that is the case based on the publicly available evidence.  And if we're going to choose death as the default when someone can't keep themselves alive on their own, then that takes us down a slippery slope that I'm not sure people want to go.


Comments (Page 3)
6 Pages1 2 3 4 5  Last
on Mar 28, 2005

Terry Schiavo's end speaks poorly of our judicial system

you've made the assertion but  i doubt you can provide convincing evidence to condemn the judicial system.  as nearly as i can tell after reading way too many transcripts, pleadings, rulings, etc., all of the judges involved from the point the family first walked into court through 3/22/05 based their decisions on the law; when they varied from what might otherwise have been considered standards, they did so to accomodate the shindlers.  the decisions from 3/22/05 to present are pretty much pro forma....there was nothing new to consider.

it certainly ain't america's judicial system thats exploiting this family's troubles.

 

The issue is whether he should have life and death decision making over a woman who he is only "married" by the most strict legal definition. He's already had 2 children with another woman that he lives with. He's not the person who should be making this decision.

actually the decision has been out of his hands for several years.  when the family feud began getting really ugly in the late 90s, michael schiavo invoked the trial court's jurisdiction to allow the trial court to serve as the surrogate decision-make--as provided for by law (and regularly done in other cases involving children and those unable to act in their own interests).

on Mar 29, 2005
Drmiler you misunderstand what I mean. What I meant is that the time threshold for action was conditional to the amount of publicity the case was receiving. I am speaking about taking the son-in-law out of the picture. Once it got too big there was no way the father could do what was right and make a move against the son-in-law. He would need to contract it out and I highly doubt the guy would know anyone who could help him out with such a thing. And because of his lack of contacts his only option would be to do it himself. But like I said, the situation became too hot for him to have done anything himself. This Michael husband guy, he hasn't really done anything that would make it harder for someone to take him out. His actions would mean great satisfaction should something happen to him. Her parents and especially the father have the familial duty to take any form of action to save their child's life. No matter how drastic. I mean this in no jesting manner. If I were as old as her dad is I would easily take the chance and do the real right thing. What would he lose in comparison to what he would gain? A few more years out in society with no shred of family honor left, or a few more years and the knowledge that things have been settled in a fair and honorable manner? Being made a fool of isn't very condusive to living a life worth living. Maybe the father needs 50mg of prozak for a backup insanity plea.
on Mar 29, 2005
"The major issue, to me, about taking the decision making away from doctor's and the courts is that it sets a precedent that we will have to live with for some time."


But that is the essence of "law". If the law is a good one, and well constructed, there shouldn't be all this "deciding". The fact is, especially in this case, Americans are seriously uncomfortable how blurry the line between "handicapped", and "doomed to die" is.

"Life is not the government's interest. The government's interest (and this is directly from the founding fathers) is to ensure the safety of it's citizens from threats both foreign and abroad.


I think you mean "at home and abroad", and in that case the legal issue of when you may or may not kill your wife falls perfectly under the responsibility of lawmakers.

You seem to think this is an issue of the government "supporting", T.S., John. When has that ever entered into it?
on Mar 29, 2005
Drmiler you misunderstand what I mean. What I meant is that the time threshold for action was conditional to the amount of publicity the case was receiving. I am speaking about taking the son-in-law out of the picture. Once it got too big there was no way the father could do what was right and make a move against the son-in-law. He would need to contract it out and I highly doubt the guy would know anyone who could help him out with such a thing. And because of his lack of contacts his only option would be to do it himself. But like I said, the situation became too hot for him to have done anything himself. This Michael husband guy, he hasn't really done anything that would make it harder for someone to take him out. His actions would mean great satisfaction should something happen to him. Her parents and especially the father have the familial duty to take any form of action to save their child's life. No matter how drastic. I mean this in no jesting manner. If I were as old as her dad is I would easily take the chance and do the real right thing. What would he lose in comparison to what he would gain? A few more years out in society with no shred of family honor left, or a few more years and the knowledge that things have been settled in a fair and honorable manner? Being made a fool of isn't very condusive to living a life worth living. Maybe the father needs 50mg of prozak for a backup insanity plea.


Your right.....I misunderstood. And I should have inserted the word "legally" in my post. Although if it was me and the opportunity presented itself. I'd still take the butthead out. I wouldn't care how big it had gotten.
on Mar 29, 2005
Draginol and many of you others start from a point of unbridled bias against Michael Schiavo and vilify the courts for accepting the evidence put before it in his favour. How can you, then, be objective regarding the courts' decisions. Yet, you claim to be rational commentators. SHAME ON YOU.
on Mar 29, 2005
Draginol and many of you others start from a point of unbridled bias against Michael Schiavo and vilify the courts for accepting the evidence put before it in his favour. How can you, then, be objective regarding the courts' decisions. Yet, you claim to be rational commentators. SHAME ON YOU.
on Mar 29, 2005
Draginol and many of you others start from a point of unbridled bias against Michael Schiavo and vilify the courts for accepting the evidence put before it in his favour. How can you, then, be objective regarding the courts' decisions. Yet, you claim to be rational commentators. SHAME ON YOU.
on Mar 29, 2005
You seem to think this is an issue of the government "supporting", T.S., John. When has that ever entered into it?


that is the very crux of the issue. florida's law--as does texas'--intends to acknowledge and protect the individual's right to refuse treatment. acting as her proxy of the first priority reserved to the spouse by law, ms schiavo's husband has informed the court that she directed him to forego artificial life support measures in the event she was unable to do so herself. based on the evidence presented to the probate court, a judge ruled in her favor.

"Choices about death touch the core of liberty. . . . [N]ot much may be said with confidence about death unless it is said from faith, and that alone is reason enough to protect the freedom to conform choices about death to individual conscience." justice stevens.
on Mar 29, 2005
"Draginol and many of you others start from a point of unbridled bias against Michael Schiavo and vilify the courts for accepting the evidence put before it in his favour. How can you, then, be objective regarding the courts' decisions. Yet, you claim to be rational commentators. SHAME ON YOU."


What evidence? We don't hand over people's estates based on hearsay wills. The manager of an estate has more responsibility than this. This isn't a spouse testifying that his wife wanted her nephew to have her car, this is someone saying that someone should be starved to death. Do you really think that we should starve people to death based on hearsay directives?

Another major factor is his title as "husband". When the man moved on, so should have his title. We don't accept polygamy. You dont' go find yourself a new spouse and manage the old one like she was a piece of rental property.

""Choices about death touch the core of liberty. . . . [N]ot much may be said with confidence about death unless it is said from faith, and that alone is reason enough to protect the freedom to conform choices about death to individual conscience.""


I would agree wholeheartedly if there were a directive here. There isn't. In addition, this is the loosest possible standard of "life support" imagineable. The only thing shallower would be "a spoon". This was assisted suicide, not terminating life support. As it stands, assisted suicide is illegal, and it will NEVER be legal when the person's only directive is hearsay testamony of a spouse...

If we make it so, then any handicapped spouse who loses the ability to speak for themselves can be offed at will...
on Mar 29, 2005

Most advanced medical directives and living wills are for "do not resuscitate" or "no life support".  A feeding tube is not considered by any hospital that I have been to, or read about, considered "life support".  If they were, there would be a lot of paraplegics who are on daily "life support" because they have trouble swallowing.

If she did say that she never wanted to live in that state, I could understand ending her life.  What I can't understand is the way they are doing it.  She obviously was in good health.  She has lived quite a long time without food or water.

I read an article on CNN that explained why she was given Morphine.  It was because the staff saw her muscles tense and heard moaning from her as if she were in pain.  If she were as brain dead as people have said, why was she in pain and moaning requiring pain medication?

It just doesn't sit well with me.  You get put in jail for starving a dog to death, but somehow it's legal to starve a person to death.

My husband and I were talking about this case.  We have a daughter, and can't imagine being in a legal battle over her life with a "husband" that had a new family.  I can't believe that the courts are even considering him her husband considering that he moved on and has a couple kids by his "fiancĂ©".  How can a man in that position retain Terri's best interests? 

Hopefully this case will prompt people to draw up advanced medical directives and living wills.  Too bad it's too late for Terri to voice her opinion.

on Mar 29, 2005
"~Judges used little more than "hearsay" evidence to come to their decisions."

Terri's husband is the legal guardian and thus entitled to tell the judges what Terri's wishes were. He was apparently present in the court room. It was NOT hearsay.

"~It was the wife killer, Michael Schiavo (not Terri Schiavo's Doctors) who ordered her physical therapy and further tests discontinued."

A doctor couldn't order the ending of the therapy. But according to Wikipedia, Michael only ordered the ending of the therapy after the doctors told him that there was no use continuing it.

"~the wife killer, Michael Schiavo has already lied several times, including about her condition, so why accept "this is what she wanted", especially after she had already been "living this way" for years before he "magically" remembered her wishes."

I find nothing odd about taking three years (1994 to 1998) to decide that everything is over and only then implementing her wish. You have to make a substantial assumption to claim that he only remembered her wishes then. I suggest you must have come to the conclusion that Michael is the bad guy before you came to the conclusion that he "magically remembers her wishes" rather than vice versa.

"~There are NO medical protocols which would allow medical professionals to accept a verbal living will in any other case."

Th medical professionals didn't accept the verbal living will, the courts did. The medical professionals accepted the court's decision.

"~The judges apparently did not interpret current laws, they simply listened to one side and made their choices."

If this was true governor Bush or president Bush would certainly feel that they could interfere. I'm afraid it doesn't seem to be true.

ParaTed2k, this is how witch hunts are started. I doubt that Michael Schiavo would survive a meeting with the demonstrators very long if these views continue to be distributed as fact. It doesn't matter whether he is an evil bastard or not, this must not happen.

The facts are that he IS the legal guardian of Terri (whether we like it or not), that we do not know whether Terri wants to stay alive or not (and he is legally the best source we have for her wishes, also regardless of whether we like it or not), that it is possible that he is telling the truth, in which case what is being done to him now is terrible and must therefor be avoided if only to avoid that situation, and that Terri Schiavo is in a persistent vegetative state (according to her doctors, whether we like it or not) and as such is unconscious and unaware (whether we like it or not). The videos we have seen are only a few minutes and her actions in them represent instinctive or random reactions. I do not trust my emotional views of wanting somebody to live and react against the opinions of medical professionals who claim the opposite.

We have absolutely no proof or reason to believe that Michael is lying except the fact that we don't like him and want the woman to live.

"If she did say that she never wanted to live in that state, I could understand ending her life."

And that's the point. We legally know that she did say this. The court didn't find any reason not to believe her legal guardian when he claimed such. How can we assume that the courts are corrupt and that he did lie when we clearly know less about him or the case that the judges who have ruled and when some of us even believe in new "facts" that have clearly been made up because they fit the Michael-is-the-bad-guy theory, which is the most convenient way to mix his impression on us and our emotional need to support the dying woman and save her life.

"Terry Schiavo's end speaks poorly of our judicial system"

It might speak poorly of the laws, but the judicial system worked perfectly, even when popular opinion was completely against the ruling according to current law. This is how a judicial system is supposed to work and it is amazing that it did.

However, I would not be surprised if Michael Schiavo, the evil bastard, was attacked or even murdered soon.

That would speak poorly of our society though.


on Mar 29, 2005
Why didn't the Supereme court take this case?
on Mar 29, 2005
And that's the point. We legally know that she did say this. The court didn't find any reason not to believe her legal guardian when he claimed such. How can we assume that the courts are corrupt and that he did lie when we clearly know less about him or the case that the judges who have ruled and when some of us even believe in new "facts" that have clearly been made up because they fit the Michael-is-the-bad-guy theory, which is the most convenient way to mix his impression on us and our emotional need to support the dying woman and save her life.


Don't you think that it's a bit blind to think the courts infallible, and the husband incapable of lying? I'm not saying that the courts are corrupt or that the husband did lie, but we can't simply deny that possibility because it would make us feel terrible if we ended the life of an unwilling person.
on Mar 30, 2005
"~Judges used little more than "hearsay" evidence to come to their decisions."

Terri's husband is the legal guardian and thus entitled to tell the judges what Terri's wishes were. He was apparently present in the court room. It was NOT hearsay.


Sorry but your wrong! NOBODY heard Terri say anything. Nobody except Michael that is. And by ALL rules of evidence that is hearsay. There are no coberating witnesses nor any evidence to back him up.


A doctor couldn't order the ending of the therapy. But according to Wikipedia, Michael only ordered the ending of the therapy after the doctors told him that there was no use continuing it


Funny that the therapy was disontinued right after Michael won the court case. Not one dime of what was supposed to go for Terri's care was ever spent in that fashion.
on Mar 30, 2005
I heard Michael Schiavo's attorney today describe her setting. He said the room had music playing, there were flowers, and she had a stuffed animal under her arm. I submit this is all carefully crafted window dressing to make the scene more palateable. What does it mkatter her surroundings when the key element is the utterly cruel means used to enforce her exit from this life. If the surroundings had any relevance, we'd have to allow that if Saddam Hussein had simply had some cheery wallpaper on premises, the rape rooms used by his psycho sons would have been just ducky. Sveral points have been raised that need to be investigated. Perhaps they should have been addressed years ago, but they haven't been so addressed. But allowing Teri to die makes everything moot. A judiciary which cannot allow that it is fallible is a terribly dangerous thing to contemplate. It is more important to get the rulings right than it is to cover your tracks or make more bad rulings to justify other bad rulings. We are prepared to become less as a people when we will allow someone to die this cruel death whose only crime is a failure to leave written instructions regarding her wishes should she become incapacitated. If there is such a thing as divine justice, Teri's husband should not sleep well at night ever again.
6 Pages1 2 3 4 5  Last