Brad Wardell's views about technology, politics, religion, world affairs, and all sorts of politically incorrect topics.
Support from Clinton
Published on February 9, 2004 By Draginol In Politics
I highly recommend reading this article: http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/003/236jmcbd.asp

It is a very good article that discusses why the US went to war with Iraq in the first place.  It never ceases to amaze me that two things about the on-line world always remain true: 1) How little people know about the facts of history and 2) How willing they are to go on-line and demonstrate this.

The United States and UK went into Iraq because it believed, correctly so, that Iraq was a serious threat to the region and to the US/UK. The Kay report has been reported very selectively. What it actually says includes three  things but only one has been widely reported:

1) No weapons of mass destruction have yet been found and it is increasingly likely that none will be found.

and the part left out that should be mentioned:

2) Saddam thought he had weapons of mass destruction. His generals thought he had weapons of mass destruction. Due to internal corruption, money that was being spent to create weapons of mass destruction were diverted to other things.

3) The general strategy Saddam was going towards was to not create stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction but rather prepare the way to be able to produce them in quantity once the sanctions were lifted. That is, not have a smoking gun but get everything in place to flip a switch once the heat was off.

It is items 2 and 3 that should be remembered and yet are overlooked by the media (and amazingly there are still some people who claim there is no bias in the media).   The United States was attacked on 9/11. It was the most severe attack by a foreign entity against the United States since 1812.  The US is at war.  Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 directly. But that's totally irrelevant. In a post-9/11 world Saddam couldn't be allowed to stick around. The UN believed he still had weapons of mass destruction. The intelligence services from every major country thought he had WMD.  And why not? Iraq said that they had them too. When Iraq tossed out the inspectors in 1998, there were still tons of WMD unaccounted for.  Iraq refused to account for those weapons and hoped to play the stall game in the hopes that France and Russia would again take the position that sanctions should be lifted.  The people who were against the war are still against the war. The people in favor of military action are still glad we did it. Not finding WMD is completely irrelevant because a) it wasn't up to us to prove he had WMD. and His current possession of WMD was irrelevant.

But don't take my word for it. Here is something former President Clinton had to say this past year.

"When I left office, there was a substantial amount of biological and chemical material unaccounted for. That is, at the end of the first Gulf War, we knew what he had. We knew what was destroyed in all the inspection processes and that was a lot. And then we bombed with the British for four days in 1998. We might have gotten it all; we might have gotten half of it; we might have gotten none of it. But we didn't know. So I thought it was prudent for the president to go to the U.N. and for the U.N. to say you got to let these inspectors in, and this time if you don't cooperate the penalty could be regime change, not just continued sanctions."

Iraq repeatedly made false declarations about the weapons that it had left in its possession after the Gulf War. When UNSCOM would then uncover evidence that gave the lie to those declarations, Iraq would simply amend the reports. For example, Iraq revised its nuclear declarations four times within just 14 months, and it has submitted six different biological warfare declarations, each of which has been rejected by UNSCOM.

In 1995 Hussein Kamal, Saddam's son-in-law and the chief organizer of Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program, defected to Jordan. He revealed that Iraq was continuing to conceal weapons and missiles and the capacity to build many more. Then and only then did Iraq admit to developing numbers of weapons in significant quantities--and weapons stocks. Previously it had vehemently denied the very thing it just simply admitted once Saddam's son-in-law defected to Jordan and told the truth.

Now listen to this: What did it admit? It admitted, among other things, an offensive biological warfare capability, notably, 5,000 gallons of botulinum, which causes botulism; 2,000 gallons of anthrax; 25 biological-filled Scud warheads; and 157 aerial bombs. And I might say UNSCOM inspectors believe that Iraq has actually greatly understated its production. . . .

Next, throughout this entire process, Iraqi agents have undermined and undercut UNSCOM. They've harassed the inspectors, lied to them, disabled monitoring cameras, literally spirited evidence out of the back doors of suspect facilities as inspectors walked through the front door, and our people were there observing it and had the pictures to prove it. . . .

Over the past few months, as [the weapons inspectors] have come closer and closer to rooting out Iraq's remaining nuclear capacity, Saddam has undertaken yet another gambit to thwart their ambitions by imposing debilitating conditions on the inspectors and declaring key sites which have still not been inspected off limits, including, I might add, one palace in Baghdad more than 2,600 acres large. . . .

One of these presidential sites is about the size of Washington, D.C. . . .

It is obvious that there is an attempt here, based on the whole history of this operation since 1991, to protect whatever remains of his capacity to produce weapons of mass destruction, the missiles to deliver them, and the feed stocks necessary to produce them. The UNSCOM inspectors believe that Iraq still has stockpiles of chemical and biological munitions, a small force of Scud-type missiles, and the capacity to restart quickly its production program and build many, many more weapons. . . .

Now, let's imagine the future. What if he fails to comply and we fail to act, or we take some ambiguous third route, which gives him yet more opportunities to develop this program of weapons of mass destruction and continue to press for the release of the sanctions and continue to ignore the solemn commitments that he made? Well, he will conclude that the international community has lost its will. He will then conclude that he can go right on and do more to rebuild an arsenal of devastating destruction.

And some day, some way, I guarantee you he'll use the arsenal. . . . In the next century, the community of nations may see more and more of the very kind of threat Iraq poses now--a rogue state with weapons of mass destruction, ready to use them or provide them to terrorists, drug traffickers, or organized criminals who travel the world among us unnoticed.

If we fail to respond today, Saddam, and all those who would follow in his footsteps, will be emboldened tomorrow by the knowledge that they can act with impunity, even in the face of a clear message from the United Nations Security Council, and clear evidence of a weapons of mass destruction program.

-Bill Clinton


Comments (Page 5)
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on Feb 11, 2004
Good god Muggaz, quit while you're behind. At first you just sounded like a fool, later an idiot, and now an ass. Describing you as a child is generous. Infantile is more like it. Isn't it a school night?
on Feb 11, 2004
Well muggaz, I apologize for stating the obvious, but even my freshman in Intro to US history, generally use better English Grammer Skills. Besides, if my point was obvious, why did you argue it?

Cheers
on Feb 11, 2004

Muggaz: First, my intent with the child remark wasn't to insult you but point out the absurdity of you labeling 17 year olds as "children". You've said elsewhere that you're like 20 or 21 years old. So if a 17 year old is a child who does'nt know any better and is just following daddy's wishes or whatever unsupported theory you're grasping at now, then what is a 20 year old? In 3 years someone goes from being totally clueless about basic facts of life to being nuanced enough to discuss these issues?

Secondly, there's nothing hypocritical about removing someone who went around making hateful racist remarks on dozens of blogs. While cowards tried to appease him, some of us had to roll up our sleaves and actually deal with someone who was causing grief to many members of this site. Our intolerance of griefers here is pretty much the same as any other community and I'll say it again: Feel free to leave here and go off to your Utopia community where griefers can run wild and free.

on Feb 11, 2004
Ok, why dont you learn a little about Guant. bay yourself before you post on the issue.

If you do a little reading, you will learn that one of these kids were 10 or 11 when they were taken... (you government is very sketchy and will not provide full details on this issue, but it is FACT) http://www.bahraintribune.com/Archive/PDF/January_2004/30-1-2004/Page07.pdf

I am not going to let you put words into my mouth... you are conveniently generalising that i said all the 'kids' were 17... if thats the best you can do... continue posting about skinning or whatever.

still beleive a 10 year old should be in an adult prison???? let a lone a juv. institution?

I dont know about you, but i dont particularly find 10 year olds threatening, and i dont really think they played an instumental part in organising sept. 11... heck, i am sure they probably didn't even understand what happened.

Secondly, Guant. bay can hardly be described as a POW camp.

I guess thats the difference between you and me Brad... the facts of life... something happened in the past.. blah, blah, blah... its a fact of life... you cant change it...

Of course we can change it... but you are happy sitting pretty next to your computer, as long as it doesn't effect your life directly, you dont give a crap about 10 year olds in prison... continue beleiving whatever it is you beleive... I live for tomorrow, you live in the past.

Its obviously pointless... because you know i have direct ideological differences to you, you wont take anything at all that i say seriously, its like my opinion doesn't count at all. These are cold hard facts here... you cant ignore them.

Very insightful there Hamster... thanks for your input. Brad - i call hateful personal attack. boot.

Jeb - i dont know what you are talking about... if you can find where i argued against your point, please enlighten me.

Interesting coward remark there as well Brad... nice blanket incinuation.

BAM!!!
on Feb 11, 2004
Hi

First time I've responded to a blog but I feel quite strongly on the issue of WMD claim. I am from the UK and Blair quite categorically stated to us that the reason for the war was because Saddam had WMD which could be activated in a 45 min time frame. There were no other stated reasons for the war.

I was against the war and still am though obviously I'm pleased that Saddam has been removed from power. However, I think there should have been other ways of achieving this aim.

My belief is that the real reason for going to war was OIL and not out of any goodness of Bush/Blairs' hearts to help the Iraqi people. If their real aim was humanitarian then a) why did they wait so long and why don't they go out and invade all the other countries that treat their citizens badly???

Blair is in a pickle over here with a Hutton Report into the whole WMD claim - the report was a whitewash and there is much debate about it. I don't think Blair can survive it.
on Feb 11, 2004
Hi NoviceKnitter.

Dont bother... for this post you would be diagnosed as ignorant because you dont have any sources....

i agree with you 100%... but we cant back it up. It doesn't matter that Rumsfield was planning an attack on Iraq hours after Sept. 11 either (Paul O'Neill)... because he was planning it because of the weapons of mass destruction... riiiiiight...

Good luck friend.
on Feb 11, 2004
WoW, i usually dont bud in because i know its pointless to argue with Brad & Co but i must say this really takes the cake, first they complain that:

" You should show a little respect on the blogs you respond to. Every blog is moderated by the author of that blog. I don't have to put up with personal abuse from you. I can delete your comments."
and
"That's so incredibly patronizing. And foolish too. If I were as infantile as he apparently thinks I am then that would make him a fool since every time "

and then Brad goes on himself and make comments like:

"Clearly your bamming your head into the concrete is causing brain damage. " "No offense but I really think you should leave the political discussions to the adults, Muggaz. " "While cowards tried to appease him,"

Holy moley, you really say just whatever fits you for the moment dont you Brad ?

Good going trying desperately to argue Muggaz but as you see there is no discussion going on in any real sense here where people actually exchange arguments.

/ Falaffel
on Feb 11, 2004
Brad, reply #52 was uncalled for and totally lowered the tone of this debate. I assume you were tired, stressed or upset at the time but you should apologise for it. IF someone had said that to you you wound have been upset.

To comment on some of the posts here and try to get the topic back to conversation and defuse the anger,

#54 I agree that Guantanemo Bay is an illegal institution and having minors incarcerated there is an unacceptable affront to humanity. The US should at least legalise it by granting prisoner or war status. There are legal frameworks for such situations including the handling of combatants below 18 years old.

#55: Yes on someone's 18th birthday they do magically become an adult. It's the law. Below this age children are either considered incapable of understanding their responsibilities to society or considered as having being failed during child rearing that they would do such a thing. They are therefore treated more leniently with reintegration not punishment being the focus.

#59 Brad Muggaz totally agrees with you about children in prisons in Iraq so you should drop this topic. Again you attack him. He's stating that he does not agree with minors in prison whether for murder or because they pointed a gun at a US soldier in Afganistan. Argue that point as a seperate point.

#60 Muggaz don't respond with attacks. Brad has the authority to evict people for personal attacks and if he did so in the past it was for good reason.

#61 more personal comments. Focus on people's arguements not on what you think their mentality is like.

#63 see my relpy to #55. It's not just ability to comphrehend, it's also responsibility for being an adult. A teenager may know they are doing wrong but untilk they reach maturity the law accepts that they may not have had the upbringing to give them the responsibility to stop. Second part of this was a justified reply but went a bit far considering your personal comments in the esarlier thread.

#64 The US refuses to grant POW rights to Guantanemo bay prisoners because that gives them legal rights. It is therefore currently in breech of the Geneva convention of human rights. Fact. It may also be in breech of it's own constitution which will be determined within a few months by the supreme court. Last few comments about Brad were a bit heated though. No need. The rest of your post made your point.

#65 Also in the UK here and agree with you on Blair. He's unlikely to get in too much trouble thoguh as the Tories keep screwing up. They should have set him up for total burial, but instead wasted energy on demanding resignation for not knowing all the facts. They should also have refused to join an investigation into intelligence errors without it also dealing with politicians usage of such intelligence and whether the erros lay with them. I however do support the war and believe that Saddam should have been removed years earlier. I wasn't foolish enough to believe in WMD though.

#66 Muggaz there have been many posts on this topic backed up with quotes and sources. American attitudes are changing. A few months ago the suggestion that WMD didn't exist was laughed at. Don't be depressed just keep arguing and making good points. If you can find quotes then do provide them.

#67 You can indeed argue with Brad and even totally disagree with him. You may be right, you may be wrong. Doesn't matter. It's the debate that counts. In this particular case I do believe that Muggaz's legitimate arguements against minors in prison have been warped into something else. This initial article was about Iraq though and that may have caused some of the misunderstanding about his position. Perhaps he should write a new article on the subject.

Paul.
on Feb 11, 2004

The problem (well one of the problems) with Muggaz's "debating" (if that is the proper word) is that he doesn't seem capable of making distinctions. If Muggaz wants to write a blog talking about Guantanomo bay Cuba and put up sources on how bad it is that's his right. ON HIS BLOG.

But he's not doing that. He's coming into my article and hijacking it to talk about an issue he clearly either doesn't know anything about or doesn't grasp the rather obvious implications.

His argument boils down to this: Oh sure, Saddam might have entire prisons dedicated to imprisoning small children simply because Saddam didn't like their parents BUT the US has (I'll take Muggaz's word/source for it though I am skeptical) 1 prisoner from the war in Afghanistan that is 11 and so the US can't really complain..

I mean, what a load of nonsense.

Solitair - no, I don't regret what I said to Muggaz. I think he's..well, a fool.

For instance, Muggaz could have spent a few seconds on Google and found out more about the under 18 Guantanamo prisoners:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/2970279.stm

There are 3 of them. 3 total. All 3 were "active" combatants against US troops. One of them has been verified as one who killed US troops. to compare enemy combatants (regardless of their age) to child political prisoners is so incredibly offensive. 3 enemy combatants being compared to ENTIRE PRISONS for small children is just so reprehensible.

I wouldn't have any problem if Muggaz wants to write his nonsense on his own blog. But when he pollutes my articles with his assanine comments I am going to let him have it. What's next? The US is as bad as Saddam's Iraq because both have capital punishment?

I agree that in the UK WMD were made a more central issue than they were here. In the US, 9/11 happened. After 9/11 there was and still is popular support for taking out Saddam. That's what democracies do. If the UK and Australia were against it then they shouldn't have participated. At least in the US the government was acting on the wishes of the vast majority of its population.

And throughout this entire discussion I've yet to see someone come forward and counter the original argument. Instead we get a bunch of strawman arguments or redirections. The fact is, since 1998 US administrations on both sides have made a pretty clear case that Saddam was a dangerous guy who had to go.

BTW: From this point on Muggaz posts on this topic will be removed. It's too difficult to have an inteligent back and forth argument with him polluting it. If he has a counter-argument he can make it on his own blog. Removing comments on your own blog is a right every blog owner on this site can excercise. I haven't removed any comments thus far and the conversation got warped into a ridiculous comparison between 3 prisoners in Cuba vs. children's prisons. So from here on, he'll have to go to his own blog to write about this stuff.

on Feb 11, 2004
Solitair:

1) The US isn't violating the Geneva convention with its detention of enemy combatants.

2) No, I won't let Muggaz off the hook because I am not going to concede that there is any sort of equivalence between an enemy combatant of any age, particularly when you are talking unususal circumstances and few (3) in number and building entire prisons to house thousands of very small children simply because their parents opposed Saddam.

It is an important point because it helps demonstrate that Saddam was an incredible monster. WMD may have been given as a major reason over in the UK and Austalia or even in the UN but here in the United States Saddam's fate was sealed on 9/11 whether he had anything to do with the attack or not. It was really that simple. The US is a democracy, the vast majority of Americans (>60%) wanted him gone. After 9/11 the US could no longer pussy-foot around with him. And even after resolution 1441 Saddam made it clear he was going to keep jerking the US around.

Many people didn't agree with the war in Iraq. But to pretend that it was somehow Bush and his neocon buddies that set it up is just nonsense. Feel free to find a single poll since 9/11 that showed most people opposing military action in Iraq. Even with no WMD stockpiles, the US would have invaded.
on Feb 11, 2004
1) The US isn't violating the Geneva convention with its detention of enemy combatants.


Actually it is, but the US thinks it can get around this by saying that Guatmo is not a POW camp, which it is.
on Feb 11, 2004

Jeb - we'll have to agree to disagree then.  At best though, the issue is contested. It is not correct to say for a fact that the US is violating the geneva convention. There are those who say they are (i.e. on the left) and there are those who say they aren't (on the right).

BTW, the US argument isn't that Guantanamo isn't a POW camp. It is that the prisoners there are illegal combatants. Al Queda operatives and many Taliban soldiers did not conform to the Geneve Convention requirements to be treated as a POW. On top of that, I've yet to hear what "right" they are being denied.

on Feb 11, 2004
Al Queda operatives and many Taliban soldiers did not conform to the Geneve Convention requirements to be treated as a POW.


I'm not exactly sure how Taliban soldiers don't conform to the Geneva Convention. The US may not have actually declared war on either Afghanistan or Iraq, but they did intiate actions consistent with War. Now, people caught in terrorist acts do not fall under the Geneva Convention, but they are guaranteed basic protection under the US constitution, regardless of their nation of origin.

Cheers
on Feb 11, 2004
Well for one thing - uniforms are required. Some sort of markings indicating you belong to a particular side.
on Feb 11, 2004
I'm not sure about that. I'll look into it and report back
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