Brad Wardell's views about technology, politics, religion, world affairs, and all sorts of politically incorrect topics.
Easing up on the demands
Published on October 8, 2005 By Draginol In GalCiv Journals

Back in 1992 I was in college and was writing a computer game called Galactic Civilizations for IBM's OS/2 operating system.  I hung out on Usenet's comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic and almost like a collaborative design team, the users on that news group, where I was (and still am) a regular put together the features for this game.

I had started a little company called Stardock Systems in order to help pay for school and this game was being done under that umbrella.  IBM was very kind and sent me some software and tools and "red books" to help me write it. I also had bought Teach Yourself C in 21 days in order to program it.  The game also started a tradition that lasts to this day -- open betas.  Users who pre-ordered the game could participate in the beta program and tell us what they wanted changed or tweaked in the game. 

 for {product/platform} screenshot 1The betas were released in late 1993 and 1994.  But unknownst to us, we weren't the only ones interested in making a space-based strategy game.  Another new company had been started called Simtex and they had made a game called Master of Orion.   It was released at Christmas 1993. 

Because they were separated by OS platforms, the two existed side-by-side.  One might argue that we made the wrong choice in choosing OS/2.  After all, Master of Orion is considered a classic while Galactic Civilizations on OS/2 was a technological footnote.  But in reality, could a game written by a 20 year old college student in his spare time have gotten the kind of coverage that Galactic Civilizations received if it weren't for OS/2?  The publicity Galactic Civilizations received helped build the momentum that takes Stardock to where it is today.  Or put another way, Stardock exists today, many game developers in that time have long since vanished.

Master of Orion and Galactic Civilizations wouldn't tangle again so directly until 2003 when Galactic Civilizations for Windows and Master of Orion 3 would face off.  Since I made the original and was designing the new one, I knew exactly what I wanted to do.  Master of Orion 3 was made by a different company - though on a much higher budget.

This time they were both on the same platform and during development, there were heated discussion by fans of each (which typically involved people on moo3.com slagging GalCiv).  Since GalCiv had an open beta, and anyone who's been in one of our betas knows how crappy our games are until the very end, the MOO fans could rightly point out how ugly GalCiv was looking.  We were competing against something that had no open beta, just a few choice screenshots that looked, admittedly pretty good.

Then Master of Orion 3 shipped and things changed.  Regardless of ones feelings on Master of Orion 3, it was not what fans were expecting. What I think many fans wanted was Master of Orion 2 with some tweaks and better graphics.  Master of Orion 3 was many things but it was not Master of Orion 2 with some tweaks and better graphics, it was very different.

Master of Orion 3 actually sold better than Galactic Civilizations -- a lot better.  3 years of pre-ordered ensured it had a massive foot print at retail.  When it came out you could find rows and rows of Master of Orion 3 boxes and then would have to dig around to find a box of Galactic Civilizations.  Still, the game sold well with nearly 100,000 sold in North America either directly from Stardock or through retail via Strategy First.  Some unknown number (probably around 50,000) was sold overseas.  Not too bad.

The reviews of Master of Orion 3 and sales (when compared to its budget) made it unlikely that Atari would be doing a Master of Orion 4 any time soon.  GalCiv, whose budget was about 1/10th of MOO 3's, was ready to do a sequel with a bigger budget and a more vigorous marketing strategy.

So what about all those Master of Orion 3 fans who wanted MOO 2.5?  If my email inbox along with forum posts are any indication, they would have Galactic Civilizations II be that game.  But it isn't.  It's not supposed to be.  The forums really only give a taste of the nit-picking that MOO fans submit but it's there.  Whether it be demands for players to do orbital bombardments without having to invade the planet to demands for tactical combat ("I should be able to select which weapon fires on which ship!").

That isn't to say we won't put in good ideas when we hear them.  But Galactic Civilizations has always been a strategic game.  It's never been a game about tactics.  It's literally a class of civilizations.  You're building a civilization and you want to see how it is able to compete against other civilizations.  Ship design was added for the sequel not to be more like Master of Orion but to help extend the clash of civilizations story-arc: Players can take different weapons and defense technology paths and it would have become ridiculously complicated to stick with the "Technology gives you Ship X" methodology that GalCiv I gave you.  We had to have a way for players to choose what types of weaponry and defenses to put on their ships.  The 3D engine made it too tempting not to let people visually design their own ships.

Fleet battles in Galactic Civilizations II carries forward the clash of civilizations vision as well.  Because fleet sizes are limited by ones logistics ability, it forces players to decide whether to focus on a few huge ships or fleets of smaller ships.  Ultimately, the game revolves around whose civilization can adapt best technologically, culturally, industrially, and militarily to a given random galaxy with a given random mix of aliens controlled by carefully designed AI algorithms.

Master of Orion is not designed to be a clash of civilizations in this sense in my view.  It's a clash of militaries.  In MOO, at any level, cranking out the ships was rarely an issue. In the original, fleets of 30,000 ships was not uncommon.  The game down to being able to design the most effective ships and match them to your own tactical battle strategy the best.  The end-game typically revolved around a genocide run with each player zipping into a system with a massive fleet (held back by how large a USHORT was -- 65,535 ships in a group) and wiping out the planet.  The player with the faster ships could annihilate faster and thus win the game.

A fairly well known story about me and Master of Orion involves the birth my first son.  I played Master of Orion 2 in the delivery room on a laptop while waiting for my son to be born.  Hence, I know when MOO2 shipped because I was playing it on November 30, 1996 when it was still very new.  Or put another way, I'm a MOO fan too.  But that doesn't mean I want to clone it anymore than I want to clone Civilization (which, after all, has a very similar title). 

At the end of the day, we have our own ideas on what makes a fun game and want to pursue that.  And I can sympathize with Master of Orion fans who, ten years after MOO 2's release, are still looking for what they see as a "true sequel".  But please stop trying to push MOO on us.  We don't see being different from MOO as a flaw. 


Comments (Page 1)
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on Oct 08, 2005
I think a lot of it is everyone has their pet feature they absolutely loved about the MoO games. Be it starlanes, GNN, espionage, tactical battle, whatever... we all had that one feature that just made the game for us, that made the series stand out and become a real classic. A lot of what I've seen on the forums myself has been people lobbying for their one particular pet feature, and when others join in with their own features, the tread when taken in whole reads like a MoO 2.5 pipe dream. I am sure your email tells a different story completely, but for the forums at least I think there are fewer people asking for MoO 2.5, and more just asking for GC 1 + Favorite_MoO_Feature.

It's all armchair game design from us though. We all loved GC1, despite the differences from MoO And despite all our griping about what is and isn't in GC2, I bet we'll all enjoy it too. But you can't fault us for having our dreams
on Oct 08, 2005
Well said Draginol. I just pray the masses listen!

Ugleb big big Moo fan
Ugleb not think GC2 should be Moo4
Ugleb didn't know Draginol founded Stardock!
on Oct 09, 2005
>>><<< Sure he founded Stardock... with Unamious Support from Wardell... I realize that GC2 Will not become what Moo4 Should be... but it doesn't hurt to take a few ideas....Comon world govenments steal miltiary tech from each other ALL THE TIME! especially during WW2..or WW1? hmmm nah Cold war! i never played Moo so i don't know... so im not gonna be mad at stardock. i loved GC1 but ill want to marry GC2 at this rate (NOT REALLY! ). Anyways good job and all that. however!, im not a very good military person even though i will bulid a Really strong miltiary at some point im more of a evil centralized person! well is it supremacsit to know what everyone is doing while giving them their freedoms? (THEY STILL CAN DO PRIVATE MATTERS WITHOUT ME SEEING!)
on Oct 09, 2005
Yes GC saved the space empire building genre. If it were JUST Moo3 the genre would be dead easily by now. Now Galciv is the only game besides space empires (which i personally dont like) in this genre. Keep up the good work.

And you are 100% right, the fans for MOO wanted a MOO2 with better graphics and some tweaks. MOO2 in itself was an almost perfect game, just needing some minor tweaks to make a 3rd game and modernizations would of made a great MOO3. Quicksilver sucks and Alan Emerich was an idiot. They didn't listen to the fans, though they claimed to. I'm glad that you (Stardock) exists and that you actually do listen.

Also I do admit I like MOO2 more than GC, though with what i've seen from GC2 I will have a new #1 strategy game. I've played MOO2 for 6 years, heh.

The whole MOO3 thing and the general shittyness of modern games can be 100% blamed on companies like Atari, EA, etc. Dont sell out to them, ever. I'm sure you know that though, heh.
on Oct 09, 2005
The whole MOO3 thing and the general shittyness of modern games can be 100% blamed on companies like Atari, EA, etc. Dont sell out to them, ever. I'm sure you know that though, heh.


If they did sell out I doubt we'd ever see a GC3!

Edit - actually we would, it would have a real time battle mode bolted on 2 months before release at the order of some guy in a suit. And the control system would be redesigned for the Xbox port.
on Oct 09, 2005
Unforuntily... EA Games Especially Controls a pretty large chunk of the Electronic Gaming industry... so from time to time YOU MUST BUY From them! Just like microsoft Giant Monoplies in disugise now Public ultiies are a diferent matter.... Still it would be funny too see several Power companies form competing over customers...like thearts to consumers that if they change they will cut power or fighting funnines...
on Oct 09, 2005

Thanks for your responses.  I'm all over putting in good features. Where I object is where someone wants the way GalCiv does something CHANGED to be like MOO2.

MOO 2 had great espionage.  But its diplomacy was rudimentary at best.  They, like all game developers, had to pick and choose what they wanted to put in there. 

on Oct 10, 2005
Galactic Civilizations is not Master of Orion


Too bad

I mean it shouldn't be exact copy of MOO , GalCiv have few interesting ideas and additions like cultural victory and such but in general personally I (and many of my friends) want just improved version o MoO .
on Oct 10, 2005
Yes, and what I'm saying is that you're going to be disappointed. GalCiv has its own take on what space strategy games should be and it has a legacy and fan base that goes as far back as the original MOO as well.
on Oct 10, 2005
Whoever made MOO3 should have their balls cut off.

I think I literally went out of my mind when i waited 3 years for a sequel to my favorite game, reserved a copy at the store, bought it, went home, installed it, loaded it up for the first time and ... scratched my head.

It was as if the creators for MOO3 had never even played the previous versions of MOO. I am still boggled how a company could fuck up that bad on a game that was a slam dunk. Slam dunk as in - it had a huge following and only needed the basics of the game enhanced; graphics, story ect..

I never tried GC
on Oct 10, 2005
Im not saying MOO3 was bad (i never tried it) but In the sort of government the US is The Majority Rules Unfourtiuntly That system is full of inherint Bugs But i don't think theres a punishment that bad in the US even though its Corupt maybe China NOT EVEN THE SOVIET UNION WOULD DO THAT! (now they would beat the living crap out of you but not that...) You should try GC its a decent Game i own it and i execpt that GC2 will be Much better than the original if not perfect Doesn't have to be the BEST. Maxis Got that award For The sims as long with HL1 and many of the Old age Classics Which dominated the market in their times Now we got crappy and better looking games Monoplies have formed idoits seized imperial power...Though as they say nothing can last a hundred years.....what it means THINGS WILL CHANGE! its the way of the world....I speek too much don't i?
on Oct 10, 2005
Wow thanks for the Stream-of-consciousness reponse.
I would like to try out GC2,I'll keep it on my radar

MOO3 creators should be publicly castrated though.
Can anyone tell me 1 good thing that was in MOO3?
on Oct 10, 2005
I like the colonize system, where you could flag a planet and it will take care of sending a ship. If there were no ships available, it would send the next one built automatically.
on Oct 10, 2005
I was heavily involved in MOO3, and everyone is right in the end. They should have made MOO2.5 but were obsessed with "revolution, not evolution." Big (*&@(#*& mistake.

I played mutliple, multiple times more GC than MOO3. GC was great and I'm so looking forward to GC2 it's not even funny. Moreover, honestly, as great as MOO2 is, how many times do you just Auto (or later "z") to just get combat over with. I think, in any given game against the AI, there's about 3 space battles per game that are even remotely interesting. After that, the AI was so bad at ship design, that it was imply a "how fast can I kill this 200 ships?" game. Anyway, GC remained fun and playable until the end of the game every time.

I applaud Stardock, and for one, can't wait for NOT MOO4 out of GC2.
on Oct 10, 2005
Im not saying MOO3 was bad (i never tried it) but In the sort of government the US is The Majority Rules Unfourtiuntly That system is full of inherint Bugs But i don't think theres a punishment that bad in the US even though its Corupt maybe China NOT EVEN THE SOVIET UNION WOULD DO THAT! (now they would beat the living crap out of you but not that...)


I think my brain is melting. What did the US government have to do with Moo3? Soviet Union...china....was it communist plot?!

Whoever made MOO3 should have their balls cut off.


Most definitely.

I was heavily involved in MOO3, and everyone is right in the end. They should have made MOO2.5 but were obsessed with "revolution, not evolution." Big (*&@(#*& mistake.


If they wanted revolution so badly they shouldn't have started by making a sequel. It would have gone down better if we weren't all expecting an improved Master of Orion game, instead we got whatever they were trying to make instead while still calling it Moo3.
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