Brad Wardell's views about technology, politics, religion, world affairs, and all sorts of politically incorrect topics.
Are you being spied on? Right now? Stop picking at that!
Published on December 26, 2005 By Draginol In Politics

In politics, 2005 will likely be remembered as the year of the demagogue.  Where facts, history, and truth take a second seat to loud, shrill accusations of wrong-doing.

The latest one has to do with the wiretapping of suspected terrorist agents in the United States.  Now, I'm not going to argue whether I'm in favor or against said wire tapping because I do not (and neither do the pundits) know enough on the specifics of each case to know the merits.  What I'm going to talk about is the legality of it.

First of all, the supreme power of the land is the constitution.  In it, our government is split into three co-equal parts -- the legislature (Congress), the executive (President), and the judicial (Supreme Court).  Just as congress cannot pass laws to outlaw frowning because it violates the bill of rights, the congress cannot pass laws that infringe on the power of the other two branches.  Or more to the point, it can pass laws but that doesn't make them valid.

In war, the US President has immense powers to conduct that war.  In past wars, the President has done some pretty heavy duty stuff.  In 1941, the government rounded up Japanese-American citizens and put them in concentration camps for the duration of the war.  In 1917, President Wilson locked up anti-war protesters enmasse as "agitators".  In the Civil War, Lincoln suspended habeas corpus entirely and contemplated locking up the chief justice of the supreme court as a "southern sympathizer".

Many Americans don't consider us "at war" today.  That is something I find rather odd.  On September 13, 2001 congress most definitely passed a resolution that was a declaration of war.  It granted the President all the powers and responsibilities necessary to carry out the war on terrorism.  You may not agree with it but it exists and the congress has not deactivated it so it remains in effect.

Many constitutional scholars, including Orin Kerr, well known law professor at George Washington university says that warrantless searches and seizures against suspected foreign agents is probably legal.  During the Clinton years, its deputy attorney general took the same position. Some of you may remember the Clinton years, where federal troops and armor were sent against people in Waco and armed federal soldiers seized a young child in Florida over a custody battle.

The activity of enemy agents acting with suspected agents in the United States almost certainly falls within the bounds of Presidential action.  Of course, the President could just round up all Arab nationals (citizen or not) and put them into monitored camps. The supreme court, incidentally, upheld doing that to Americans of Japanse descent even while I would have condemned it.  And I'm not sure yet how I feel about the President's policy on this either.  I do know, however, I'm not sweating "it's 1984!" just yet.  Democracy has a tendancy to resolve these issues in the longer run.

The point being, whether you agree or not with the President's policy with regards to monitoring suspected terrorist agents, shrieking that Bush should be impeached is absurd.  At most, the issue is murky and will need to be resolved by the courts at some time.  But it is quite in line with historical precedence.

It's too late for 2005, the year of the demagogue.  With 2006 nearly here, perhaps a new-years resolution is in order - cut some slack to those who are trying to protect us from terrorists and jihadists.  Be vigilant to be sure for freedom requires it. But don't let ones partisanship become blinding.


Comments (Page 1)
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on Dec 26, 2005
I'm not sure if what Prs. Bush did was legal or not either, but if it was illegal then the members of Congress who went along with it for years are in it just as deep as he is. If it is legal then both the president and the members of Congress should be commended with equal varacity.

Either way, we do know for a fact that at least one law was broken here. Someone leaked the details of an on-going operation. Someone who should be prosecuted for what could be a capital offense.

and what about Echelon. ;~D
on Dec 26, 2005
Excellent article!
on Dec 26, 2005
Your post contains the two components always found in arguments for defending Bush:
1. We need daddy Bush to protect us
2. Clinton did blah, blah, blah

We have a government that was unconstitutionally put in power by the partisan hacks in the Supreme Court, a government that is run by corporations for corporations, a government that spys on it's citizens under guise of national security. So what exactly are they protecting us from? Nothing. The fact is, they're not protecting us.

The government received failing grades from the bipartisan panel regarding reforms needed to protect the United States. Hurricane Katrina showed us that the government is not prepared to respond to emergencies. 52% of the public doesn't think Bush is honest or trustworthy and other than the people who follow Bush blindly (otherwise known as sheep), we don't want him spying on us. The excuse that we're "at war" doesn't fly. We've been fighting terrorists for decades and will continue to fight terrorists for decades to come, but saying that because we're "at war" the president should have powers to circumvent congress and override the constitution is ridiculous.
on Dec 26, 2005
We have a government that was unconstitutionally put in power by the partisan hacks in the Supreme Court, a


The line that liars use when they have nothing but filth to spread.

Your guy lost... get over it and get on with your life.
on Dec 26, 2005

Your post contains the two components always found in arguments for defending Bush:
1. We need daddy Bush to protect us
2. Clinton did blah, blah, blah


1. Yes, that's what government is supposed to do.

It's not a health insurance company. It's not a kindergarten association. It's not a provider of entertainment. It's an agency supposed to protect its citizens or subjects.

2. Yes, Clinton saw it the same way.

There are some basic ideas behind government that right and left agree on. Get used to it.


we don't want him spying on us.


Too bad, comrade. The politburo doesn't make the laws yet.

on Dec 26, 2005
The point being, whether you agree or not with the President's policy with regards to monitoring suspected terrorist agents, shrieking that Bush should be impeached is absurd. At most, the issue is murky and will need to be resolved by the courts at some time. But it is quite in line with historical precedence.


Most of the criteria that I was condemning Mr. Bush on did not involve his latest wire tapping fiasco. So you'll just have to spell out the absurdity that you perceive the "left" (and I do use that word loosely) to have.

Perhaps you could be more specific?

on Dec 26, 2005

Your post contains the two components always found in arguments for defending Bush:
1. We need daddy Bush to protect us
2. Clinton did blah, blah, blah

Your posts always contain no facts, and 2 allegations.  Bash Bush, and Clinton is god.

on Dec 26, 2005
This country lost when Bush and the people like him took over the power in this country. WE have scene a lack of enforcement of laws to protect our borders and jobs so some businesses can prosper. We have scene a shift in who pays for our society from the wealthy who can afford to pay to the middle income workers that are far less able to pay the bill. We have scene an arrogance by the executive branch for the other two breaches as well as for any other person or country that does not support the Bush line. We have scene greater political polarization than since the Civil War in America.

We need to have the courts determine IF President Bush exceeded his authority and if the court rules that he has done that, he must be brought under control or removed from office
.
on Dec 26, 2005

So you'll just have to spell out the absurdity that you perceive the "left" (and I do use that word loosely) to have.

You quoted what the 'perceived' left was guilty of in his opinion.  Why cant you read what you quote?  Or is it just a comprehension problem?

on Dec 26, 2005
You quoted what the 'perceived' left was guilty of in his opinion. Why cant you read what you quote? Or is it just a comprehension problem?


You aren't seeing what I am getting at. Fine - let us take the long road around....

Taking a stand for civil liberties is nothing new. As Brad researched this article I was hoping that he would have spent time paying attention to the repealement process and how most of these civil liberty violations get reversed from public outcry. The information is out there.

For comparison purposes, watchdog agencies that were created during the Viet Nam crisis were successfully withdrawn when pressured to produce tangible results. Drawing from previous precedent, the evidence of the past has shown that wire tapping rarely finds the right bad guy and always creates a massive data pile which is difficult to sift through and draw a concrete decision from.

You get a whole lotta nothing tituba!

Now add yet another government agency to sift through this mountain of data and usually this involves drawing from the latest fad government think tank. The American Enterprise Institute comes to mind. What history has shown is the think tanks are always gov't selected, approved, and unanswerable to the people. If we have history as a guide, we can fully expect the think tank to add political spin because these degenerates are always under pressure to produce something from nothing .

This is what happens to survellence data. It is a very difficult process to pull reliable date out of this method of survellence and in the wrong hands - it can convict the wrong people. That is one of the mandates of the CIA and FBI.

Professional conduct where some sort of public review can be set up. Fail in this aspect, and only the most poltically conveniant information is brought to a higher-ups attention and the information becomes "stove-piped". This is exactly how the department of Homeland Security differentiates itself from the CIA or even the FBI.

Brad even acknowledges the murkiness of this behaviour which tells me that somewhere in the back of his brain he has more detailed reasoning for calling this type of criticism absurd. Now my intention is to find out what it is.
on Dec 26, 2005

Did you..you know..actually read the article? I never said that criticism is absurd. I said calls for impeachment are absurd.

 

on Dec 26, 2005
Consider this, there was president that was impeached on a technicality about his lovelife. While technically guilty of infidelity the lie did not endanger or affect civil liberty in any way, shape, or form.

Then came along a guy that did do things that affected peoples day to day life. If people found a way to be pissed off about infidility and the dishonesty to protect it, why is it absurd to actually criticism a big change? The change is much more invasive. You aren't making sense.

You further contradict yourself with paragraph

First of all, the supreme power of the land is the constitution. In it, our government is split into three co-equal parts -- the legislature (Congress), the executive (President), and the judicial (Supreme Court). Just as congress cannot pass laws to outlaw frowning because it violates the bill of rights, the congress cannot pass laws that infringe on the power of the other two branches. Or more to the point, it can pass laws but that doesn't make them valid.


This is an ironic statement since 01 congress has handed power over the purse and given sweeping new powers to executive branch. Resolution S.J. res.23. Link

That act was such a big deal that it inspired Robert Byrd to write a book on it and how it empowers the executive branch. Yet you make it sound like the opposite has occured. The balancing act of the constitution which you made light of was indeed broken. But by the executve branch.

Many Americans don't consider us "at war" today. That is something I find rather odd. On September 13, 2001 congress most definitely passed a resolution that was a declaration of war. It granted the President all the powers and responsibilities necessary to carry out the war on terrorism. You may not agree with it but it exists and the congress has not deactivated it so it remains in effect.


Can you really blame people for not taking this bill seriously? Not even the senators could come up with a formal declaration of war because the enemy is non distinct. It doesn't have a flag. The last time you did such a thing was 1941. It doesn't have one face. And because the definition was so damn broad, everyone knew right there that an indefinite war cannot be maintained. All powers gained in times of war must have a clear objective, otherwise the power to wage war is at the whim of the executive branch.

No formal declaration was ever made. The "just because" explanation is starting to wear thin after its forth consecutive year and now people are asking for clearer justification for remaining under wartime power. THAT is your criticism which you label the democrats of demagoging yet in reality it is pushed more by republicans in a bipartisan move with the dems.. Again another contradiction. Why you say dems I don't know....

Many constitutional scholars, including Orin Kerr, well known law professor at George Washington university says that warrantless searches and seizures against suspected foreign agents is probably legal. During the Clinton years, its deputy attorney general took the same position. Some of you may remember the Clinton years, where federal troops and armor were sent against people in Waco and armed federal soldiers seized a young child in Florida over a custody battle.


For every Orin Kerr I can add a Robert Dreyfuss, Ivan Eland, Jim Lobe, Ron Paul, Harry Browne, Lew Rockwell, or even the infamous Patrick J Buchanan that would disagree with Mr. Kerr. The point? Let's not get into the scholarly wars.

So after all this I hope you can walk away and realize that with a wire tap you need a threat much bigger, much stronger than Iraq. To justify its use you need really need an enemy on par with the soviet union its hey day. Al Quada doesn't cut it and people realize this. This isn't absurdity, it is just common sense.


on Dec 27, 2005
monitoring suspected terrorist agents "suspected" is the keyword upon which you rest your argument. No one would argue that; but in the meantime, particularly with the botch jobs in Intelligence, many citizens are vulnerable and vulnerable to identity theft and who what elase.
on Dec 27, 2005

stevendedalus -- I'm not arguing I agree with the policy since there are a lot of issues involved.

But, the main point remains: Trying to argue that Bush should be impeached is ridiculous.  I may or may not like the policy but there are few legal scholars coming forward to argue that what he's doing is illegal.

No formal declaration was ever made.

Your opinion != fact, Slanderer.  The rest of your response is too incoherent to respond to.

on Dec 27, 2005
We need to have the courts determine IF President Bush exceeded his authority and if the court rules that he has done that, he must be brought under control or removed from office
.


Hey col...."What are you going to say if the courts decide that GW has NOT exceeded his authority"?
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