Brad Wardell's views about technology, politics, religion, world affairs, and all sorts of politically incorrect topics.
My review and experience with it
Published on May 1, 2005 By Draginol In Home Improvement

If you decide you want to finish your basement there are lots of options to consider.  Do you do it yourself? Do you contract it out? Maybe do a little in between? For me and my wife, we just aren't handy enough to try to finish a basement on our own.  So we decided we'd contract the whole thing out.

Once you decide you're going to contract it out, then it's a matter of deciding what direction to take with it. Do you go with drywall? The problem with drywall is that it takes months to put in (how long do you want contractors going in and out of your house?).  It makes a lot of mess (expects months if not years of drywall dust to be floating around your house), it's susceptible to damage from a wide range of sources (water, normal wear and tear due to it being in a basement).  So we wanted our basement finished but drywall had a lot of negatives to it.

That's when we heard about the Owens Corning Basement System.  After intense negotiations, we had it done.  And below you can read about our experiences during the sales process, installation, and after effects.  I hope you find it useful.

The Owens Corning Basement System has been in place now for our basement for about a month now so I've had time to get used to it.

The project went pretty smoothly except for a few hiccups that I'll talk about here. So what's the verdict? Here are the things I really liked about it:

  1. It's fast. In 2 weeks it's all done.
  2. It's clean. No dry wall dust all over.
  3. It's durable. It's virtually impossible to damage. Basements, unlike the rest of the house, are more prone to dings since that's where most people store things too.
  4. It's virtually sound proof. This was an unexpected benefit. But the kids can go and play down there without having to hear music, TV, yelling throughout the house.
  5. It looks pretty nice still (but not as nice as dry wall in my opinion).
  6. It is nice to know that in 20 years it'll look the same as today. Dry wall in basements tend to not look so good. At best you'll have to repaint larger areas. With this, you don't have to.

The big thing for us though was the speed of it. My first basement was done with dry wall and I have no regrets about that. It was nicely done. But it took months to do and over a year for the house to stop having more dust in it than before. The dry wall dust simply gets everywhere.

If you're as unhandy as me, then you likely want contractors to do pretty much all the building. It can be uncomfortable having strangers in your house for months. In contrast, the Owens Corning Basement System was installed in our roughly 1100 to 1200 square foot area in about 2 weeks (closer to 10 days).

In short, I was willing to pay a premium to not have to deal with a summer of construction. The fact that it looks nice and can't be damaged easily was a real bonus. My 3 year old already put that to the test by taking a permanent marker to one of the walls. In a few minutes we were able to wipe it off with some bleach and you can't even tell where it was. Contrast that to having to repaint that area with a dry wall basement. Not to mention all the nicks and gouges that would be there due to moving stuff down there.

That said, here are things that I ran into that I didn't like that you should be aware of:

I really didn't like the sales strategy of their sales people. High pressure combined with little specifics created a lot of headaches during the project.

First off, people who can afford to pay a premium for their basement being done aren't fools. Even so, they used the same tactic on us as they would on some gullible yokel. No offense, but the reason we can afford this stuff is because we have some financial savvy. So don't march into our houses with magazines showing that the "Average" basement costs over $50 per square foot to finish. Because that's nonsense and does more to harm your sale than anything else. Sure, if you're going to have bathrooms and kitchens and tiled areas and wet bars and such it will cost more, but the Owens Corning System doesn't take care of any of that. They just do the "walls", drop down ceiling, electrical, and a few other things. They're not going to build you a bar or tile your floor for you (unless you make a special deal with them). Just for reference, a typical basement done with dry wall with nothing too fancy done shouldn't cost much more than $20 per square foot. Our last dry wall basement cost around $17 per square foot.

The price you should try to get with the Owens Corning Basement System is somewhere between $25 and $35 per square foot. They may balk at $25 but $35 they should certainly take. I paid about $28 per square foot. $30 per square foot would be good. Anything much higher and you're paying too much. Which is why they do the high pressure tactic to get you to sign right there.  To the sales guy's horror, I made him sit there while I had my laptop doing net searches on how much other people have paid. By the way, be aware that most states do have a law that allow you to back out of contracts within 72 hours. So if they did manage to get you to commit for $55 per square foot or something you aren't up the creek.

The second thing I didn't care for was the amount of vagueness to the agreement. Because of the high pressure sales tactics, the sales guy didn't write down a lot of our specific needs on his "agreement" (which was literally just a 1 page form he hand wrote notes on which I was pretty unhappy about). For instance, we said we wanted padded carpet so he suggested Home Depot. Which we did. But they didn't cut the doors so that they would fit on padded carpet so when we put in the carpeting, we had to take off the doors. It took us 3 weeks to get them to make good on this. They argued it wasn't their responsibility to fix the doors. Nonsense. We told them up front that we were going to get padded carpet. For us to fix would have meant bringing in another contractor. They agreed to fix it only after I made it clear that I would ensure that my experiences with the Owens Corning Basement System would show up high on google. It took the guy 30 minutes to fix it once he dropped by. So they made good but it did mar an otherwise fairly seamless experience.

So make sure that you are clear (and document) exactly what they do and what they expect you to do. The Owens Corning contractors don't tend to do as much as regular full service basement contractors. They weren't planning on putting in our phone and cable lines for example but luckily that was written into that agreement.

Thirdly, the only negative I've run into since putting it in is that it is, contrary to what they said, not that easy to hang things up on the walls. Since they're not drywall, you can't just put in a nail and put stuff up. You have to use special clipper thingies. These work nice on light things. But they didn't give us any samples or directions or order forms to get things for putting up heavier items (like a big white board for example). This has been a source of some ire since it's turning out not easy to find these "mending plates" in low quantities. Office Max and Staples don't seem to have them. None of the hardware stores we've looked at have them. I've looked on the net and I can buy them in quantity (like 1000 at a time) but I only need like 5. My suggestion is to insist that they provide you with 100 of the t-pins (small stuff) and 100 mending plates (big stuff) as part of the agreement.

Fourthly, this gets back to the "customers are suckers" sales pitch. The sales guy and his materials really went hard on the mold scare tactic. Mold is definitely something not to blow off. But it should not be your motivating factor to spend a third again as much on a basement. Would you pay $15000 more on your house for a "lightning strike resistant" design? The kinds of houses most people who would put this stuff in are usually newer and on the premium side. The basements, in short, don't get wet very easily. That isn't to say they shouldn't mention mold, but it should be more of a "bonus" feature rather than as the principle selling point.

Now that it's all done, I'm pretty happy with it. I like knowing that I won't have to mess around with painting or touching up the basement in a few years. I do wish it was easier to modify with other things. For instance, I can't just build out a bar from it. But that is no biggie really. The basement does what it was supposed to do. And even better, since I want to have a theatre down there eventually, it's got incredible acoustics. If you have the money and are more interested in having your basement be finished quickly and cleanly rather than having some incredible basement palace created, this is something you should seriously consider.

Completion date: September 2003.

Update: September 2005: I have created a second article for people who want to share their experiences (good and bad) with the Owens Corning Basement System. GO HERE to discuss.

update: 10/2003 - still pretty happy with the basement. thanks for all your emails. if you have any questions, ask them in the comments area or you can email me at bwardell@stardock.com.

update: 5/1/2005 - still happy with how it's turned out. I get a  lot of email on this stuff from people, I don't usually get to answer it. But I will say that we are happy with it still. It absorbs sound. But I maintain that the main reason to get it is that you want to save time. If you don't mind having people working on your basement for 6 to 10 weeks and the drywall dust and other dirt that is inevitable with dry-wall then get the dry-wall.  But for me, having it all over in a week or so was the key and no mess afterwards.


Comments (Page 29)
53 PagesFirst 27 28 29 30 31  Last
on Jan 09, 2005
Thanks Ken. I trust your judgement and will take your advice.
on Jan 10, 2005
Dan-o:

You are right, the fixation on s.f. price is misplaced. Its lineal feet and component quantity. If you take a 20x20 room (400 s.f.) and use only the wall panels anchored to foundation with only four corners and no doors, windows, stairs, closets, metal walls, interior partitions, electrical work or ceiling, that would yield the lowest cost per s.f. that Owens Corning can give. After that, everything you add will increase the price per s.f. Makes sense, right?

To make it even simpler to understand, think of that 20x20 space as a grocery cart. The more you fill the cart -- and with what -- the more it will cost at check out. Same with your basement.

Good Luck

on Jan 10, 2005
In Replay to Dan-o

The price is computed on a sheet where the costing is broken down into the following main categories from what I recall:
Linear feet of external Walls
Linear Feet of internal Walls
Number of Doors
Sq footage for drop ceiling and lighting cost

Of course, you don't get to keep a copy of this, but obviously interior walls and added options are where the costs are high (since no framing is done on exterior walls). If I recall, the cost of gettng an additional outlet was around $50 and around $80 for a light switch. So make sure you get those bundled into the deal upfront or it can add up pretty damn quick. One extra that was worth it, was an egress window which was done at cost (ie materials, not labor).

It's very interesting that some Franchises appear to offer doing bathrooms and carpet, where in Michigan they don't do that. You pay $30-$40 sq ft just for the walls, doors and ceiling tiles. One of the reasons our sales guy mentioned was that drywall in the bathroom voids the warranty for mold resistance/growth (at least in that area).

Even though our installation is complete (aside from them coming back and fixing the outstanding quality issues after the OC inspector is over this week), it doesn't feel like it without having a bathroom or carpeting done. Suffice to say that we can't use it with the kids yet.

I'm not sure what some of the county/state codes say about bathrooms, but I was under the impression that they have to be finished with drywall/greenboard or similar. If OC could use or develop a non-organic (ie. not a mold food source) panel in bathrooms then they would start to live up to their "basement finishing experts" title they keep throwing around.
on Jan 11, 2005
The problem is not all the franchises price the same! I will give you what is mostly used in the Northeast. L.F. of wall (just measure the length of all the wall you are doing) $175.00 and that includes ALL electricity in the wall. Ceiling in Sq. ft. (width x length) $12.75 and that include all lighting and electricity. Both stated above is with a permit and to code. Steel studing $26.00 a L.F.. Duct work and beam trim $24.00 a L.F.. Each post covered
$375.00 ea.. Sspindles on stairs etc. $110.00 L.F. All wall price is the same interior or exterior, for a wall that is not on concrete you must add stud price. Egress is right around $3750.00. Permits and travel and various stuff $500.00 Cable and phone and smoke detector are $150.00 each. Tear out of existing is $20.50 L.F. That will give you a mfg.list price that should be good for anywhere from 6 mos to 1 year. There are from time to time time further discounts that if taken advantage of that eve might result in a big savings. They are not always available and all franchises do not use them. So be careful when painting with a broad stroke, it does not apply to all! Please, list what office you are dealing with and that will help everyone here, this way they will not look like goofballs when they go to thier office and demand a certain price and cannot get it. good luck Bill
on Jan 12, 2005
To David: The panel is and has been used for bathrooms in the basement. It is perfect, it breaths and is non organic and is much better than a green board or blue board. Those products are not non organic.
on Jan 12, 2005
Hi Ken,
That's very interesting. It is just that not all franchises know about this, or is this for half bathrooms where there is no shower or bath? Having the panels would have made construction much more compatible and I wouldn't have to wait so long to get it done.
on Jan 13, 2005
Hi all,

Just thought I'd add my story to help out anyone in the Central PA area. I got the aforementioned sales pitch, and after about 4 hours, decided to put a deposit down. I'd seen the system in a friend's house, so already knew what it would look like. After my salesrep left, I decided to do a little more research to assure myself I hadn't made a mistake, and found this site. Turns out I was paying slightly over $45 per square foot (without carpet), so I got a serious case of buyers remorse, and after thinking on it for about half of the next day, decided to cancel. When my cancellation was received, I got a call from the company, and after answering a few questions, they asked if they could send a sales manager out with a "significantly lower" offer. I like the system, so I agreed. I'd also decided on a few changes to the basement in the meantime. The very pleasant sales manager paid a visit, and even though he made quite a few concessions, the price was still around $41 per square foot. I decided I needed to wait for some estimates from "traditional" contractors, so he politely returned my check, and I promised to contact him when I made my decision. I sincerely believe he gave me the best price he could. So, I guess the price is going to depend a lot on the market you're in and the competition in the are. There is nothing particular complicated about the design of my basement.

Bill
on Jan 13, 2005
Let's try those last two sentences again. I'm not as stupid as they sounded - just don't like to proofread:

So, I guess the price is going to depend a lot on the market you're in and the competition in the area. There is nothing particularly complicated about the design of my basement.
on Jan 14, 2005
I posted back around 11/7 that I had purchased the OCBFS and would post again after installation is complete. My basement was finished last week and all I can say is -- WOW! Overall I'm very happy with the job the contractors did. The job took 2 weeks for a 1500 sq ft basement, including lots of interior walls, 6 36" doors and 3 bifold doors. The fit and finish is very good, including the ceiling tiles (someone earlier complained about those). That being said, I'll list some of the challenges I had so you all can take these into account if you decide to get the OCBFS. For reference, I'm in the SE Michigan market and was serviced through the Toledo, OH franchise. I have a 9' ceiling and daylight windows.

1. When the electricians showed up, they didn't have any idea how the OC guys had estimated the number of cans and switches. Also, they hadn't been told about all of the closets I was having installed. We had to completely rework the lighting and swithes, resulting in some areas of the basement being more well lit than others. I also had to pay extra for another zone, again due to the electricians not being told the basement layout by the OC franchise.

2. The OC salesman told me that the OCBFS would insulate so well that I'd be shutting my basement furnace vents in the winter to keep from overheating the basement. Yeah right -- at least in my case, this is not true. Even with the basement vents opened much more than the installers suggested, the basement is still a few degrees colder than the main floor. I'm not sure if this is a result of the constrictive vents they installed (round rotating things), or if I need more vents.

3. The installers did a very poor job cleaning the carpet after they were done. I have a 15-month old son, so I needed to go over the carpet first with a shop vac to pick up the big pieces (metal and plastic shards, wire, insulation), then with my home vac to get the sawdust et al. They also left sunflower shells all over the place. I don't need my son putting a shell in his mouth that some guy had been chewing on.

4. I really had to stay on the installers about certain details. They almost didn't finish the inside of one closet. They initially installed one interior wall 6" out of position (would not have met code). Some of my doors wouldn't latch until I pointed it out to them. However, they were very nice and quickly fixed everything that I noticed. Lesson learned -- stay on top of the job every day. It's easier for the installers to fix things when they are still in that stage of the project.

5. If you're getting doors, window framing and/or pole covers, you're going to have a LOT of painting to do to finish the job. This was presented by the salesman up front, but it's still would have been nice for the installers to truly finish the basement by painting those items.

6. The panels have a very strong, unpleasant smell when first installed. This smell faded after a few days, but is still noticeable 3 weeks after the start of installation.

Final thoughts -- there is a lot of chatter on this site regarding the price of the system and the mold scare sales tactic. What I don't see mentioned too often is the speed that it is installed and the low level of mess (as compared to drywall dust). These were by far the biggest selling points for my wife and me. We didn't want installers in our house for months and drywall dust in our vents for years. The mold-resistant, removeable panels, and lifetime warranty were just bonuses to us. If you want your basement to look nice, be done quickly, and are willing to pay a premium for that, then I recommend the OCBFS.

If you have any questions for me, please post them. I'll monitor this site for a while.
on Jan 14, 2005
Hi Matt,

How many people were working on your basement to get it done that fast? Ours took 6 weeks, but I think it is because only 1 guy was working down there by himself for several weeks...I always thought that was strange. We also had some places that needed to be redone, which took an extra week. Our franchise sent painters, so we didn't have to deal with the painting part.

I wish we had thought to double check the internal walls when they were putting them up...our bathroom walls were completely out in some places, which in turn made it hard to put the tile in nicely. By the time we realized it, the fix would have likely been worse than the problem so we didn't push the issue. The threshold going into the bathroom is completely out of line with the door when it is closed (which we didn't notice until after they were done and out since that door was always open). But, the overall end result was really nice, so we can deal with a few idiosyncrasies like that

I agree with you...no dust is a huge selling point!!
on Jan 15, 2005
Jen,

I had two installers doing the OC walls and trim, two electricians (they were done in one LONG day), and two guys doing the ceiling. In terms of work days, my job went like this:
walls and trim -- 9 days
electrical -- 1 day
ceiling -- 2 days (one day overlap with the OC installers)

I didn't think to check the straightness and squareness of the bathroom walls. I'm going to do that right now! Thanks for the tip.
on Jan 15, 2005
Hi Matt:

We just signed up for the installation so your comments are helpful. A few questions for you:

1) Ceiling tiles: Which one did you choose. The Mohave sample seems to dent easy and chip, while the pebble has a cheap look. Suggestions? I was also told that the Mohave would result ina lower (2inch) ceiling height than the pebble.

2) It sounds like you had the carpet down before the walls. Why?

3) Were your walls attached to the foundation walls or studded?

4) This is the first time I heard about the smell from the walls. Did OC mention that it would happen and how long it would last?

Thanks
on Jan 18, 2005
Boston Soutie,

1) I don't recall having a selection of ceiling tiles from which to choose. They left a box at my house -- I'll let you know which one it is when I get home tonight (I'm at work right now). Different franchises may use different tiles, so mine may be different than yours.

2) We had our house built and I needed to move a pool table into the basement. I didn't want to deal with laying carpet under a pool table, so I had the basement carpeted before we moved in.

3) The walls were attached to the foundation with brackets. It was less damaging to the foundation than I expected. Also, since I had carpet down already, they installed the walls a little up from the floor so they would sit flush on the carpet.

4) Nobody from OC said anything about the smell from the walls. It has faded such that it's only barely noticeable when I first open the basement door.

Hope this helps.
on Jan 19, 2005
Boston Soutie,

My ceiling tiles are Armstrong Mohave. You're right -- they can dent/chip easily, but they look great. I've had to move and replace a few tiles already and I didn't damage them. Just be careful.

My ceiling grid was installed 3 inches below the lowest item along my ceiling (furnace ducts, i-beams, etc).
on Jan 20, 2005
I had the OC sales rep out to my house on Tuesday. Of course I found this website last night. I feel that the rep was not aggressive at all. He was very easy going and really answered our questions. My wife and I were really impressed with the product. The rep did offer us the showcase discount which dropped the price by about 9K. So, for a 1,000 sq ft basement which included everything except carpet and a bathroom the cost was 41K. After reading ALL the post on this site I called the rep first thing this morning to cancel my order. I feel that I can get a better price and I'm willing to play a little hardball. I explained to the rep that we loved the product but that the price was just too high for us. He asked if he could extend the payment options and I stated that it was purely the 41K that was too high. The rep thanked me for my time and got off the phone with no fanfare. I'll fill everyone in if/when the rep gets back to me. I live in southern NJ just outside of Phily.
53 PagesFirst 27 28 29 30 31  Last