Epic Generator -- a feature too far?

Mega ambitious..

Published on November 20, 2006 By Brad Wardell In GalCiv Journals

The idea behind the Epic Generator feature of Dark Avatar is pretty straight forward:

Turn your game into readable story complete with HTML and images showing how your empire grew.

But implementation, woha. By far, this has been the most expensive single feature of Dark Avatar requiring an immense logging system to put together keys that can later be turned into a story.

And after 5 months of work, I have a feeling it may end up getting cut from Dark Avatar. It's really a matter of resources -- which is more compelling to players? It's a tough call. But the practical reality is that the Epic Generator really may need AI programming which would bring me into it.

The problem with bringing me into helping with the Epic Generator is that that means I wouldn't be working on the AI. And I think the AI really needs as much time as humanly possible.

So the Epic Generator is on notice -- we'll know within 2 weeks whether this feature is going to have to be cut or not. It'll be a bummer if it is. To my knowledge, no game has ever tried to retell the story of a given game with this kind of narrative before. And there appears to be a reason for that.

If it does get cut, I'm sure there will be a lot of bummed out players. I know I'll be bummed out. I love this kind of thing. Today, for instance, I spent a lot of time putting in flavor descriptions for ship components and such. It's pure fluff (like the epic generator) but it adds heart to the game. I love that kind of stuff.

So we'll see how things progress. We'll know pretty soon.

Comments (Page 2)

TheLaywer

on Nov 20, 2006

You should keep working on the EG. It wouldn't be that bad if it didn't make it into the game, but it might prove invaluable. A few tweeks here and there and it might work as a "soap opera generator". Make a list of 50 events and e few characters and randomize their order for every season. Then let the generator creat the scripts for the shows. You could get so rich...

Haoh

on Nov 20, 2006

I will be very disappointed if the feature gets cut. With the previous poll asking which feature was most looked forward to, myself and a lot of people voted for the Epic Generator. If it does have to get cut then I hope there is some sort of compromise like perhaps a replay feature that shows an overview of the galaxy and highlights major events, Civilization style.

Burianek

on Nov 20, 2006

I'm of the camp that might use it once or twice as an amusement, but probably not more than that.

I can see the problem that if it tries to tell the story, but doesn't do it that well, or is inaccurate in places, it breaks the suspension of disbelief. I'm kind of with you Brad, that it either works well, or it doesn't work at all.

That being said, I'd vote to spend the time on it, even taking time away from the AI *shudder*, for the simple reason that it pushes the envelope of game development. This is a huge first step. As games continue to evolve as entertainment forms, seeing other developers take their cue from you and continue to expand upon the storytelling aspect of games would be brilliant. I could even imagine down the road something like the epic generator being incorporated into the game itself. Rather than simply giving a postmortem analysis, it might actually provide insightful running commentary as the game progresses.

Think of how immersive that would be to play a game that's telling you a story in narrative as you create it through your in game actions. *sigh*

So it's not really that I'm too excited about reading what the epic generator spits out, it more paving the way for bigger and better things in the future.

Tototot

on Nov 20, 2006

Cut it! Add stealth!

Lord Reliant

on Nov 20, 2006

I'd vote for leaving in logging and letting the community mod that themselves. However, if the logs aren't in there that will never be possible...

Along those lines and something that was mentioned earlier- it'd be nice even if there was a feature just like auto-save that would snap a shot of various aspects of the game (perhaps configurable) every X # of turns. That way you could go through that file later, pull out the graphs and pictures that were worthwhile and create your own epic post. Right now you'd have to manually screenshot every time, which is time-consuming.

Heck, even having something that just created game high-lights would be fine. It just doesn't need to be in verbose format.

I'd like to see this, but the novelty would wear off over time. I do see much value in being able to at least recap logs and screenshots of the game. Toning the scope down would seem much more valuable than eliminating the concept and possibility.

Evil Muppet

on Nov 20, 2006

Frogboy,

I think everyone will understand if it needs to be cut, and although you may get one or two whiners I think most people here will be able to respond like adults.

That said, I know that a lot of people like writing Action Reports, and I still see a need for some kind of feature that enables you to keep track of everything that happens in the game (I tried it, taking notes is really hard).

For those that don't know, the very first Civ game created a log of important events and the dates that they occured, such as cities being founded and captured, techs being discovered and wonders being built. It wasn't pretty to look at, but it enabled players to have a look and write a more detailed report themselves.

I would like to suggest a similar feature for GC2. If you forget the epic story generator, please consider having the game save a text file of important events, such as:

1. Planets being colonized
2. Planets being captured
3. Techs being discovered
4. UP votes
5. Wars breaking out
6. Peace agreements
7. New ships being designed
8. Races being eliminated

(and so on)

Those of us who care about Action Reports can write all the flavour text ourselves, and use the event log as tool.

Wheeloffire

on Nov 20, 2006

I vote for cut.

I want the AI to scare me. I don't want to read an epic used by weak players to prop up their egos.

I want stronger starbases. I want starbases and capital ships to target multiple ships per turn. I want to invade starbases. I want to research different technologies on different planets the way I can produce different ships on different planets. I want to play the scenarios that came with DL and post the scores to the Metaverse.

Anyone who is truly interested in making a story out of their game has the ability by virtue of being human. There's a reason writers haven't been driven out of business by artificial intelligence.

Wheeloffire

on Nov 20, 2006

Edit isn't working. Just wanted to append this line to my post:

I second the event logging idea from Evil Muppet. That would help writers tremendously and spare the development team from further resource expenditure.

Spider Minion

on Nov 20, 2006

I won't be missing the epic generator . . . but I would like the game to remember the post-game summaries. Maybe have it record your race statistics and galaxy settings. I'd like to be able to compare my recent games to the ones I've done before. (I'm one of those who never uses the metaverse

)

SleekDD

on Nov 20, 2006

I'd would be sad to see the epic generator cut from the game but everyone will acknowledge that is was a very ambitious project. After all, it's all about making the computer churn out a well-written text without making it look too much like a template or deviating from what really happened in the game instead of what it thinks happened.

As others suggested, perhaps using a more bare-bones version would be a good compromise? If events get logged and newly designed vessels can get a screenshot for example, players can construct their own stories if they want to. Perhaps this angle might help you salvage something from those months of hard labour: help the player create his report rather than making it for him.

As far as I know, Alpha Centauri was the only other game that had something even remotely similar to this in the aftermath of a game (but I don't know many of these types of games). It displayed the evolution of borders during the game and that's it.

apoc527

on Nov 20, 2006

I agree with several other posters who said the EG wasn't something they really asked for in a feature list. I mean, yes, it would be fun to share stories of our games with people, and I certainly love reading the game examples, but if it's not going to work out, I will definitely survive. A

And to make you feel better about it, yes, the AI and actual gameplay is MUCH MUCH more important than the Epic Generator, which while really cool, is really just fluff. It doesn't make the GAMEPLAY any better and if it's taking resources away from gameplay, it must go. That's my feeling. But don't get me wrong, it would be sweet.

Philocthetes

on Nov 20, 2006

I'd vote to spend the time on it, even taking time away from the AI *shudder*, for the simple reason that it pushes the envelope of game development.

I second Burianek's take, including a shudder about the competition for scarce dev resources and the core importance of the AIs. I have no interest in being "scared" by the AI (stories are scary, software is just interesting), but I do want to be surprised now and then.

Re the repeat-play value of the feature, that will obviously vary widely, as do basic play styles. I am hung up on massive, very long games and would *always* value reading the epic afterwards.

I also heartily agree that this notion is the beginning of something with beautiful possibilities--in-game epic chapters at key points could be really fun, basically a really sophisticated version of the annual reports at the very least.

Draginol

on Nov 20, 2006

I think we could put in event logging or something. That part works pretty well. The hard part is turnign that data into on the fly stories that are interesting. Yea, in hindsight, having software generate works of fiction may have been a bridge too far.

Gre_Magus

on Nov 20, 2006

It seems like the consensus is building - better to improve the AI than salvage the Epic generator. It's definitely a neat idea, but as SleekDD said, it's also quite an ambitious project, too ambitious, I would have to say for what you get out of it.

Unless you put more work into in than the entire GalCiv game it would necessarily be unnatural and repetitive (at best). But as other posters have said, the "event log" could still be salvaged, and more useful, in my opinion, than even the best epic generator. I want to tell MY story, with my own words - but I always forget to take notes on what happens as I play, and even if I remembered it'd be too much trouble. But if the game could give me a list of all the major events:
Planet colonisation,
Ship design,
War declared,
Space battles,
Planets conquered,
Peace declared,
Techs researched,
Alliances (and the new treaties),
and - events, mega and otherwise,

I could use that information to create my own epic story.

So I hope you keep in the log - however it is now! - and go back to making some kick-ass AI.

Philocthetes

on Nov 20, 2006

may have been a bridge too far

Not too far, just into unknown territory, and *sigh* maybe too ambitious for this exact moment. Software is already generating "stories" at the visual level--what else is the combat tactical viewer?

Part of what made me really hot to see this feature is the idea that *words* might finally be getting a better share of dev time. Re Gre_Magus' take on "my" story, I always assumed the system would be highly moddable, and figured that would be the first thing that got me into active modding.

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