Epic Generator -- a feature too far?

Mega ambitious..

Published on November 20, 2006 By Brad Wardell In GalCiv Journals

The idea behind the Epic Generator feature of Dark Avatar is pretty straight forward:

Turn your game into readable story complete with HTML and images showing how your empire grew.

But implementation, woha. By far, this has been the most expensive single feature of Dark Avatar requiring an immense logging system to put together keys that can later be turned into a story.

And after 5 months of work, I have a feeling it may end up getting cut from Dark Avatar. It's really a matter of resources -- which is more compelling to players? It's a tough call. But the practical reality is that the Epic Generator really may need AI programming which would bring me into it.

The problem with bringing me into helping with the Epic Generator is that that means I wouldn't be working on the AI. And I think the AI really needs as much time as humanly possible.

So the Epic Generator is on notice -- we'll know within 2 weeks whether this feature is going to have to be cut or not. It'll be a bummer if it is. To my knowledge, no game has ever tried to retell the story of a given game with this kind of narrative before. And there appears to be a reason for that.

If it does get cut, I'm sure there will be a lot of bummed out players. I know I'll be bummed out. I love this kind of thing. Today, for instance, I spent a lot of time putting in flavor descriptions for ship components and such. It's pure fluff (like the epic generator) but it adds heart to the game. I love that kind of stuff.

So we'll see how things progress. We'll know pretty soon.

Comments (Page 3)

Wheeloffire

on Nov 20, 2006

On events, the choice made. As I am 100% evil, I'll never have to guess what option I chose but logging "evil, underwater domes emptied, 48% research bonus" would help.

Logging ship design would make the description section useful again. Many players eliminate all custom ships after each game so they can describe exactly why they designed a specific ship and have that appended to the log.

Come to think of it... let the players append the logs before and after each event. Just a tiny icon like so many on the UI.

Here's an example of what I'm thinking:

--I move several fleets to various mining bases to cripple an opposing empire in the opening moves of war.
--When the game says "attacking Yor Economy Resource base 232 will declare war, do you want to do this?", there would be a button somewhere in that window to append the declaration of war log with my reason for attacking this particular site.

drakonfire

on Nov 20, 2006

*sigh* -- it may sound absurd, but the epic generator was my prime motivation for purchasing DA (i have pre-ordered it)

i know i know, that sounds crazy, but seriously, I am an amateur writer and there is nothing i love to read better than a good story, so when i heard that i would be able to play a freakishly awesome game and then read a story about that, that idea was just too cool to me - i am probably one in a million when it comes to how much i enjoy the concept of the epic generator -- seriously, frogboy, christmas break is coming up and if you needed any layman help, i would be happy to volunteer, anything to help this feature make it

but if it gets cut, i vote for some secondary logging system like the one mentioned already

and if it gets cut, could the code perhaps go on the backburner and be a pet project? something that gets released in a massive patch in the future? please?

i know i know, i'm a sad pathetic individual, but i am also a devoted fan of you guys, and i know that if it gets cut, its for the best and i will live with that decision, even if i don't like it.

Wheeloffire

on Nov 20, 2006

Ugh... edit isn't working.

Anyway, ditto the log appending button for victory/defeat screens and any other place where an event occurs.

Players that don't care won't be bothered. Players that do care can take an extra moment to write a sentence or two about what they are doing.

drakonfire

on Nov 20, 2006

ah edit is not working...

Come to think of it... let the players append the logs before and after each event. Just a tiny icon like so many on the UI.

i really like this idea, like, a lot

Ashbery76

on Nov 20, 2006

To be honest, it's a gimmick and not really needed.

Wheeloffire

on Nov 20, 2006

To be honest, it's a gimmick and not really needed.

The original concept was definitely a gimmick but the event logging and appending can be _extremely_ useful to any player that would like to review their game.

Stardock would be modifying and expanding what they already do with debug.err.

Dano13

on Nov 20, 2006

Sounds like this should be an online poll.

I thought it was kind of neat ... but honestly? I have more fun making epic stories (i.e. playing the game) rather than reading about them. I don't need a story to tell me how the game went, after all, I was there. I probably would have used the feature once or twice and then forgot about it.

Just my 2 BC

Dano

MarvinKosh

on Nov 20, 2006

While I agree that there is a case for shelving the EG in order to spend more time on other aspects of the game, I do feel that it has merit as a means of marketing the game. Think about the power of a tool that can tie together screenshots, data, narrative, and glorious battle scenes into an unfolding saga. It's beyond the scope of Dark Avatar and a February release to work in the full EG, but by implementing some rudimentary AI that captures certain key moments, that takes note of new innovations in starship design, and logs the essentials (planet names and so on) then there will be real data to actually feed into a storyboard generator later on. Obviously, it will be up to a player to edit things somewhat so that their history books read the way they want them to read.

There are other games (not in the 4X genre though) that have shown that people like stories, and even if they're not necessarily going to go out and buy the game to make their own stories, they still might be impressed enough to give the game a whirl.

Wheeloffire

on Nov 20, 2006

Think about the power of a tool that can tie together screenshots, data, narrative, and glorious battle scenes into an unfolding saga. It's beyond the scope of Dark Avatar and a February release to work in the full EG, but by implementing some rudimentary AI that captures certain key moments, that takes note of new innovations in starship design, and logs the essentials (planet names and so on) then there will be real data to actually feed into a storyboard generator later on.

You don't need AI for any of this. Artificial intelligence is not going to suffice for the act of writing. Event logging can be easily done as described above with no AI programming whatsoever. I'll add to the event logging ideas with this:

On the main UI, have a tiny camera icon to take a screenshot of whatever you want. A png image gets filed away. Maybe they can date the image. GC2 players will be the only people around with files dated in 2230. Alternatively, the log can open yet again to record why you did it and the corresponding file name for the image.

Wheeloffire

on Nov 20, 2006

Final thought:

Stardock creates the event file in a way that third party programmers can parse into, say, a flash application. Fields preceding each part of the log can say DATE, EVENT, DESCRIPTION with optional fields like SCREENSHOT.

Let the fans handle the story telling application. It can't be xml or it won't be efficiently read by humans.

Philocthetes

on Nov 20, 2006

i am probably one in a million when it comes to how much i enjoy the concept of the epic generator

There are at least two in a million of us

The EG is tied with the new environment stuff for 1st in my lists of reasons I've been drooling for DA.

Mighty Mongoose

on Nov 20, 2006

It doesn't matter to me whether or not the Generator can create fully fledged stories. All I really look for is the groundwork or just some handy screenshots taken at crucial moments, I can flesh out the rest of the story on my own.

So don't worry if you have to get rid of it, yeah its dissappointing but it won't affect Dark Avatar for me one bit.

drakonfire

on Nov 20, 2006

There are at least two in a million of us

okay okay, i'm 1 in 500,000

but anywhat, stardock, please take heed of some of the suggestions that have been made bareboning the EG -- i really like Wheeloffire's ideas concerning a screenshot capture system and a story append icon -- perhaps if you decided to implement this, to make things easier you could have the optional generator place the player created screenshots and files into a sub-directory of the players choice inside of the GCII file structure, something like c:\program files\stardock\GalcivII\Epics\[insert directory name here] or whatever the heck you wanted to name it so that players who enjoy reading/writing good stories could have a directory that contained everything from a single game - event logs with player note, screenshots with a player written caption, and... heck, even just those 2 features would make me happier than nothing

webnavigator

on Nov 20, 2006

Definately though; make the automatic screenshooting an option though if done/possible

cyberj914

on Nov 20, 2006

I'm in the cut it camp since I doubt I'd ever bother to look at it after the first one generated. I do think if you can salvage some of it to give people a game log of sorts that would make a lot of AARs more interesting.

Still it is a unique idea that would be interesting to accomplish if for no other reason than to say *yep SD did that*. Just maybe not now.

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