Brad Wardell's views about technology, politics, religion, world affairs, and all sorts of politically incorrect topics.
Published on August 9, 2008 By Draginol In Demigod Journals

The initial inspiration for Demigod was heavily based on the Warcraft 3 mod, Defense of the Ancients. If you've never played it, Defense of the Ancients is an incredibly clever game concept in which players team up on on a single map choosing between many different heroes. How one customizes their hero makes all the difference.

Demigod works similarly in that you choose amongst several different heroes (your Demigods). Some heroes are called Generals whose strengths come from their ability to manipulate their minions and engage in larger scale strategy. Other heroes are called Assassins who are immensely powerful individuals whose strengths focus on just being massive butt kickers.

Defense of the Ancients could almost be described as a game where two rivers are flowing against each other. Each player is trying to get their river to make headway against their opponent's river until the flow enters their base. My analogy may not make sense unless you've played DotA. But if you have, you probably get my meaning.  Demigod does not play quite like that.

In Demigod you have a lot of strategic choices you have to make. Arenas have other elements that give one side or the other significant advantages. This means players have to choose often to give up some ground in order to gain longer term advantages. That is, there are certain parts of the Arena that you can control that give your side significant advantages. Hence, there are multiple strategic objectives.

The Demigod gains strength through experience, as they level up, the player can choose to strengthen different abilities or add new powers. Players can also use money to purchase items that give their side or their Demigod additional advantages. This is basically the same as was found in DotA.

So it's definitely fair to say that DotA served as inspiration for Demigod. But Demigod will ultimately be somewhat different in play style. Right now, myself, Chris Taylor, and Mike Marr are putting our combined design experiences together in trying to create a unique, innovative, and compelling strategy game experience.

More to come on this soon.


Comments (Page 3)
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on Aug 10, 2008
hopefully, you are well aware that general concepts is nothing which can be legally protected, so things like "hey I build a car, nobody is allowed to build a car but me" just don't work. Blizzard itself is a very big and very good copycat, in fact every art is mainly copying, be it games, paintings, sculptures, movies, music, stage plays.
on Aug 10, 2008
Yes, but the map as a whole belongs to DotA's developers and their community, the hours they've spent making, designing it, bug testing it, playing it, it's theirs not some conglomerate's who didn't even bother putting a clause in the license agreement. (Remember I'm arguing the fact that it DOESN'T belong to blizzard, not that it does belongs to Icefrog)
on Aug 10, 2008

AS far as DEMIGOD goes just because the concept is the same in no way at all does it have anything to do with Blizzard and Blizzard does not own any rights what so ever to DEMIGOD.

on Aug 10, 2008
Yes i was talking about DotA though in response to some one saying DotA belongs to blizzard jesh >.<
on Aug 11, 2008
Yes, DotA can be quite harsh on the community side of things. There are AI maps available in the DotA forums which I often play because I'm tired of dealing with people leaving or calling each other noobs. I'm just there to play and have a good time, and if they can't shut up about it and "be pro" rather than "acting pro," I'd rather avoid them altogether. DotA isn't that predictable most of the time. Your item and skill progression tends to be the same for the same heroes, but how you play can be as radically different as the heroes currently in use.

As for ownership, Blizzard holds no rights over DotA, with the exception of the assets in use. The concept, scripting, and map design are not theirs. If anything, GPG would have to answer to the DotA development community for Demigod's design if it turns out to be too much like the map, but so far everyone is more jazzed than upset about Demigod's coming. If anything, I bet Icefrog's looking forward to Demigod so if he continues development, he can move to an engine that actually encourages the game mode.
on Aug 13, 2008
wtf? windexglow. are u f***ing retarded?
one thing DotA very old so complaining about its concept or its appearance is stupid since it was one of the first to try it at that scale. then u said u got "kicked" but in DotA that can't be because there no way of kicking a player without the player willingly quitting the game. if u say that its concept sucks then tell that to the hundreds of thousands of people that play it. even though it isn't really that popular in the US its played by almost 500,000 people in Asia.

in ur first game, u said that u bought the wrong item then stop buying scroll or recipes because u need the items first before being the recipe scrolls in making them in better equipment.

no seriously, killing 2 creeps and u got kicked, what did u actually do? my guess is that u charged the enemy without any common sense of seeing if ur going to die in the process. stop making up stories just because u suck at a game or doesn't get the actual game play. in a game usually a player kills about 100 creeps.

in ur third game, the enemy gets money or gold from killing an opponent so probably having committed so much stupid decisions that ended in ur death caused the enemy to gain there proper item so quickly that ur teammates couldn't no longer fight with the slightest chance of winning.

- stop whining about a game u suck at. and it takes more than 3 incomplete tries to fully experience that game since from ur description u took about 25 mins in total playing that game while one complete game usually takes about an hour in average.
on Aug 13, 2008
My friend, your name suits you perfectly.
on Aug 13, 2008
wtf? windexglow. are u f***ing retarded?one thing DotA very old so complaining about its concept or its appearance is stupid since it was one of the first to try it at that scale. then u said u got "kicked" but in DotA that can't be because there no way of kicking a player without the player willingly quitting the game. if u say that its concept sucks then tell that to the hundreds of thousands of people that play it. even though it isn't really that popular in the US its played by almost 500,000 people in Asia.in ur first game, u said that u bought the wrong item then stop buying scroll or recipes because u need the items first before being the recipe scrolls in making them in better equipment. no seriously, killing 2 creeps and u got kicked, what did u actually do? my guess is that u charged the enemy without any common sense of seeing if ur going to die in the process. stop making up stories just because u suck at a game or doesn't get the actual game play. in a game usually a player kills about 100 creeps.in ur third game, the enemy gets money or gold from killing an opponent so probably having committed so much stupid decisions that ended in ur death caused the enemy to gain there proper item so quickly that ur teammates couldn't no longer fight with the slightest chance of winning.- stop whining about a game u suck at. and it takes more than 3 incomplete tries to fully experience that game since from ur description u took about 25 mins in total playing that game while one complete game usually takes about an hour in average.


Seriously Dota Player, not needed here. This is the sort of response you would see online or in the Dota-allstars.com forums. Yes, I play DOTA, and have for several years. Alot of the things that windex was complaining about were incorrect or misrepresented. However, by coming here, calling names, telling someone they suck, blah blah blah, you completely lose any credibility with your post.

There is a kick program available to the host which severs that players connection, so it is possible that he was kicked. That he was kicked in 3 consecutive games is very unlikely. However, I do not doubt that as he did things that a beginner player will do, that his team berated him and called him noob, feeder, *&%)#*, #*&%!, and #*%&!))(*1%&*. They probably stayed on him till either they left, or he left. Not a good experience for a beginner player.

DOTA is a serious time investment. A good game will take anywhere from 45 minutes up to a couple of hours. However, good games are hard to come by. It has gotten better with banlists, list checker, regional checks, and pingers, but as much time or more can be spent trying to get a match that lasts more than 10 to 15 minutes. There is little to no penalty to just leaving a game. As a result, frustrated players will leave for whatever slight, maybe they randomed a hero they consider bad, maybe no one on their team would yield to their demands of switching, maybe their team wouldn't let them solo, maybe they died in the first couple minutes by either their own stupidity or they were ganked, maybe this or that. All it takes is for a couple of players to leave a team and the game is busted.

Because of the time going in to it, the community has grown very impatient and unforgiving (see Dota Player's post). I sincerely hope that the same problems (matchmaking, no penalties for leaving, etc) will be much less in Demigod. These forums have been overall, positive, very little flaming, and posters are respectful to each other. I would hate to see this community digress to the DOTA mob mentality.
on Aug 13, 2008
Dota Player, thanks for proving our point about how the DotA community is rash and there is no hesitation to berate people, even new players, for their mistakes. When people start out, they do make mistakes. It's called learning. Take a chill pill, it's just a game.

In the meantime... can someone make sure the Demigod community DOESN'T end up like how DotA's community has turned out? I just wanna play and have fun, even if I royally suck!
on Aug 13, 2008
The DotA community is the way it is because of the nature of the game. The game has a huge learning curve. It is true the game is playable with little knowledge, but that is not really how the game is meant to be played. It is created to be competitive. You could just scan a DotA forum to see it's depth in just the number of techniques. Each person who is any good has spent immense amounts of time invested in playing these games. Many players live, sleep, and eat DotA.

It is a sport in a sense. With any sport you have the aggressive nature of competition. It is a matter of winning and losing and no one plays to lose. Even in public games we are competitive, probably more than we should be. But imagine this, you start playing soccer tomorrow and you go try to play a game with soccer pros. If you can't do anything to help them win, what do think they are going to do? They are going to kick you from a game.

This kind of game is different than a game like Halo or other competitive games. It requires the whole team's involvement. In Halo, one person can dominate and bring his team to victory. This is because of the fact that death in Halo is nothing more than just a number, possibly a loss of a good item. While in Dota, one person can help their team gain an advantage, but he is one person and still can be taken down. If killed it is loss of gold for the player, gain of gold for the other team as well as exp. Which closes the gap of items and experience. Also by killing the best player you receive more gold.

So when someone who has never played before joins a game and dies a few times early, it hurts the team greatly. Back to the soccer analogy, if you were playing soccer and you pass the ball to the new guy and he gives it to the opposing player which helps him score, you'd be pissed as hell. Sure, he might not have known what was going on, but it still hurts.

So in conclusion, think of most games on b.net (TDA or not) as soccer matches. It is where everyone brings their A-game. If you need practice, don't do it during a match, do it against friends or against computers.
on Aug 13, 2008
"I would hope that Demigod isnt a dota clone, DotA had overpowered heroes and some items were greatly outbalanced."

You probably only played dota enough to get your butt whooped. The reason why anyone would get overpowered is because the game relies on player skill too. Heroes are great but if you control them a certain way or play smart then you could get an easy advantage over someone just running around not playing safe.
on Aug 14, 2008
Well despite that, some heroes ARE overpowered as far as hero killing or creeping is concerned. Lanaya in the right hands (not necessarily experienced hands) can kill before level 6, and not stop for the rest of the game. Pudge with some know how can be an excellent enabler, if not an outright hero slaughterer. Just takes someone who can tell you what does what in your beginning days and it's all gold.

DotA has a murderous learning curve at times. It's not just the game you're fighting against, it's the player base. If the player base were supportive rather than dismissive of newbies there would be a lot more decent, if not high rank players.
on Aug 14, 2008
I totally agree with you Cosine. I understand completely how every action affects the team. There's no way around it: someone with less experience will most likely bring the rest of the team down. But it is how the rest of the team handles it that upsets me. Instead of trying to give the new player hints or any help at all, they just yell and scream about how badly they've made everything. At least this has been my experience. I've given up on battlenet and generally only play DotA at LANs now. I just don't want the same thing to happen with Demigod.

Hopefully the fact that there is going to be a single player mode so that people can practice with the various demigods, as well as a built in AI, the learning curve should be better. You can't get kicked out of a single player/AI game!
on Aug 14, 2008
I'm a DotA Allstars player, and I heard about Demigod on the forums there. I must say, Demigod looks pretty awesome.

I must agree with most people here about the player base: most DotA players are jerks. I like to think I'm not one of them. The problem is, in every team-based game which is online (providing anonymity), you're going to get jerks who blame their team for their loss. And that's what team games are all about. The DotA community has taken this to an extreme, though, and is pretty elitist. There's quite a few nice players there, but also a whole lot of retards. If you post an item build which branches out into the "it's so crazy it might just work" category, odds are you're going to get flamed. It's a sad state of affairs, but I mostly play DotA with friends I know in real life, so there's no retard interference. If I lose, I lose, but at least I had fun along the way.

I like the look of the Demigod community much better, I must say. But the problem is that with Demigod's similarity to DotA (speaking as one who's read very little about Demigod, but the whole point of this newspost is that it is DotA-like) is that you're going to attract DotA players. And they're gonna be angry, because that's what Battlenet DotA players tend to be like. ALL THE TIME. The Demigod community might well go downhill when it gets a bigger reputation, which would be a shame.

DotA is not extremely imbalanced, and that's why there's a new version released every couple of weeks - excuse the illogic. Minor tweaks to particularly out-of-line heroes, yes, but in general the community (excepting the trolls) accepts that DotA is pretty balanced. Pudge can absolutely own at level 8, but he tends to taper off late game (punnily a "meat shield" with no bite). Keeper of the Light simply cannot hold his own in hero-vs-hero fights, but his pushing ability is legendary. You may end up with a terrible Kills-Deaths ratio, but played right KotL is going to push the creepwave right to the enemy's throne. Which is just as important as raping every other enemy hero. What noobs (I use the term accurately) don't understand is that you *can* have a K-D of 0-12 (12 deaths is a lot) but can have still contributed to the team. All noobs want to do is run around getting a huge K-D and bragging about it, even while their base is being razed in two lanes. Who cares that the enemy creepwave is about to destroy the throne, the noob just pwned two enemy heroes!

I don't really ever play on Battle.net any more (the official Warcraft servers), because of the rampant noobs. I only play on private servers, even though I have a legal copy of the game and a CD-key, because getting on to a private server requires more effort (and a small amount of skill) than getting on to Battle.net. People are far more respectful of each other there.

Just to change topics for a second, DotA does not belong to Blizzard. I'm not sure of the exact legal details, but it's currently under the wing of IceFrog (who took over with Guinsoo's approval after Guinsoo stopped updating the map, and Guinsoo originally did the same thing from Eul). Or possibly it was originally made by Guinsoo and then Eul took over, I'm not entirely certain.

It looks like Demigod is using the good features of DotA and updating them for 2008. I think the end result is going to be a very good game. However, I'm not sure where I stand on loyalty - while it may be *legal* to use DotA's key elements, the morality of it is different. I'm not exactly saying "idea theft", don't get me wrong, but it does seem that there's a lot of DotA uniqueness used here. Which could well be a good thing; I'll wait until StarCraft 2 comes out, and see if DotA is decently ported to that engine.

To sum up: DotA is full of jerks and noobs, but other good people play too. Some of the posters in here obviously had experience with the jerks and noobs. I like how Demigod uses DotA's elements, but I'm not sure about the ethicality of it.
on Aug 14, 2008
its hard come up with something entirely new nowadays and as long as it isn't a bland copy of a succesful game (which Demigod surely won't be) just to make money it is okay, I mean Blizzard itself is known for taking the best elements of other games and combining them to an awesome game with lots of polishing. I also think its just fair of them to say "hey Demigod has been influenced by Dota, Footmen Frenzy, Battlefield, RTS games and RPG games."

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