Brad Wardell's views about technology, politics, religion, world affairs, and all sorts of politically incorrect topics.
New movie to serve as a barometer of kooky left wing interest
Published on June 22, 2004 By Draginol In Politics

Fahrenheit 9/11's success or failure will provide a good measure of the political temperature of the United States. In my mind, Michael Moore is a villain. An unscrupulous opportunist who brings new meaning the to the phrase "the end justifies the means".  The end, of course, being the ouster of George W. Bush.  The means, in his own small petty way, is his new smear movie, Fahrenheit 9/11.

This review at Slate takes the movie apart bit by bit. I highly recommend reading it. If his propaganda piece on gun violence in America (Bowling for Columbine) was harmless, this propaganda substance is not. The central premise behind Bowling for Columbine was that "white America" has had a long obsession with guns and gun violence (largely due to being afraid of stuff). Forget that gun violence of "white America" is essentially the same as it is in peace-loving Canada, that doesn't fit into Moore's agenda. 

This time around, Moore's premise is that the Bush family is enthralled to the Saudis in various nefarious ways (as well to the Bin Laden family). Forget that the premise is absurd to begin with. What's really amazing is that Moore actually expects people to ignore the contradictions with these concepts.  After all, how can Bush be in the pocket of Saudi interests and be going directly against Saudi wishes by going into Iraq?

But Moore, far from being the "common man", seems to believe that the common man is a fool. A dupe. A chump. Even a year after 9/11, Moore wasn't convinced that Al Qaeda (or Bin Laden) was behind the WTC attack. And yet somehow he became convinced that we should have done more in Afghanistan? Good grief. Unfortunately, serious leaders can't wait years to take decisive action.

As Christopher Hitchen writes:

In late 2002, almost a year after the al-Qaida assault on American society, I had an onstage debate with Michael Moore at the Telluride Film Festival. In the course of this exchange, he stated his view that Osama Bin Laden should be considered innocent until proven guilty. This was, he said, the American way. The intervention in Afghanistan, he maintained, had been at least to that extent unjustified. Something—I cannot guess what, since we knew as much then as we do now—has since apparently persuaded Moore that Osama Bin Laden is as guilty as hell. Indeed, Osama is suddenly so guilty and so all-powerful that any other discussion of any other topic is a dangerous "distraction" from the fight against him. I believe that I understand the convenience of this late conversion.

But it's not just there that Moore wants to have it both ways with history. Bush, regularly portrayed as someone anxious to go to war is also shown as being stunned into stupidity and inaction at the news of the WTC attack. Well which is it? Either he's an empty headed moron robot or he's a warmongering neoconservative looking to settle dad's scores.  How about this alternative explanation: Like millions of normal Americans, the attack on the WTC left him stunned and for several minutes he had to contemplate what to do next.  I consider myself pretty sharp but I remember just watching slack-jawed on TV when that second plane struck the World trade center. I was dumfounded. And I was dumfounded for more than 7 minutes.

Most disgusting is Moore's sympathy to Saddam.  According to Moore, Saddam's Iraq was no threat to any American. Really? Is this the same Saddam who tried to have Bush Sr. assassinated?  The same Iraq that regularly fired on US planes patrolling the no-fly zone? Is Moore so out of touch with the "average American" that he can't see how many of us considered Saddam a long term threat that could no longer be tolerated in a post-9/11 world?

Moore, author of "Stupid White Men" can't help but take morbid stabs at the assumed cowardice of white people (perhaps he projects too much of his own self?). In an interview, he opines that if the passengers of those flights on 9/11 had had mostly black people, they would have fought back. What a racist, gratuitous slam on the victims of 9/11.

Hitchen writes:

In a recent interview, he yelled that if the hijacked civilians of 9/11 had been black, they would have fought back, unlike the stupid and presumably cowardly white men and women (and children). Never mind for now how many black passengers were on those planes—we happen to know what Moore does not care to mention: that Todd Beamer and a few of his co-passengers, shouting "Let's roll," rammed the hijackers with a trolley, fought them tooth and nail, and helped bring down a United Airlines plane, in Pennsylvania, that was speeding toward either the White House or the Capitol. There are no words for real, impromptu bravery like that, which helped save our republic from worse than actually befell

But if that doesn't take the cake for disgusting attitudes, Moore has apparently made public his intent to aggressively go after his critics, legally if necessary. Ah, it is important to observe his right to smear his enemies (real and imagined) with impunity but any criticism returned needs to be cut off at the knees eh?  More and more, Moore makes himself the poster child of the left-wing of American culture. Dishonest, disingenuous, cynical, elitist, and hypocritical. 

Speaking as a fellow-Michigander who actually did grow up in a blue-collar area (down river eastern Michigan), I find Moore's elitism disgusting particularly as he tries to portray himself as just a "joe American".

If his movie is a box office hit, it will send a chilling signal that the the American culture has an appetite for petty vindictive overtly left-wing propaganda.  I fear that like his last Oscar-winning drek, that some people will walk out of the theater having bought into the manipulated "facts". I fear a repeat of the same ill-informed thinking of "Agree with him or not, his movie gives you a lot to think about".  Because in reality, they really don't give you much to "think about". Quite the opposite. These are films that are designed to indoctrinate.


Comments (Page 3)
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on Jun 28, 2004
Considering the endless right wing talk radio, I find it a hoot that all of a sudden conservatives are outraged about this movie. Where was your outrage over Rush's propaganda?

In our country, there is plenty of exposure for charasmatic, articulate expression of right wing views, and, until recently, there was very little of this for the left wing. Seems to me that Moore is a healthy development for our democracy, stirring up interest in the issues.
on Jun 29, 2004
Mr. Dragonol's response to this film, beyond the debate about motives, doesn't address the accuracy of some of the facts. That is what I'm interested in. Were the relationships between the Bush family and/or associates and those of the Saudi's and/or bin Laden family accurate as outlined? These issues were presented as a matter of record. Are they true or false?

Mr. Dragonol's assertion is that Mr. Moore is attempting to have it both ways. That is quite similar to the back and white discussion of the issues presented by the administration. In my business career it's not quite that simple. Regardless of the Saudi's purported opposition to the invasion, haven't the interests of both those U.S. busineeses and the Saudi's been served?

Let's get past the maudlin emotion on both sides of the debate. That will eliminate about half of both Mr. Moore's movie and the resulting conservative respose. What are the facts and what is the explanation for them?
on Jun 29, 2004
Regardless of the feelings you may have for Mr. Moore's film, I have found this film to be a well-executed film in the documentary style. Much like "the Tale of the Weeping Camel", what is documented is being manipulated for the benefit of a story the documentarian wishes to present. However, in both circumstances, the things upon which the story is based is essentially true. That, however, is neither here nor there. What is more important (in my mind, as we are discussing a film) is the quality in which the story is crafted.

Like it or not, Mr. Moore has put together a very compelling story. The second half, in particular, which documents the radicalization of a Flimt, MI woman who loses her son to the Iraq Situation is crafted masterfully. Moore may have an axe to grind, but he does know his craft well. I would not be surprised in the least to see Mr. Moore add a second Oscar to his mantle in 2005.

Everyone should see this movie to make up their own mind, however. And I'm not just saying that because I operate a theater involved in the distribution of the movie.
on Jun 29, 2004
One more comment I would add is a paraphrasing of somthing I heard from one of the bazillion talking heads on television this past weekend:

You don't go watch 'Farenheit 9/11' for a fair and balanced assessment of the Bush administration, just like you wouldn't watch Fox News for fair and balanced news coverage. You watch it because you either agree with it and want your views confirmed, you watch it because you're curious what the uproar is all about (the same thing that helped drive up interest in 'The Passion of the Christ'), or you watch it because you respect Michael Moore's technical skill as a filmmaker.
on Jun 29, 2004
Mr. Dragonol's response to this film, beyond the debate about motives, doesn't address the accuracy of some of the facts. That is what I'm interested in. Were the relationships between the Bush family and/or associates and those of the Saudi's and/or bin Laden family accurate as outlined? These issues were presented as a matter of record. Are they true or false?


If I might quite Richard Clarke, who is not known as a fan of Mr. Bush, "[Michael Moore] is making a tempest out of a teacup."

That is to say, those in know know believe the facts asserted by Michael Moore are true, but they also believe they are not really germaine to the discussion we need to be having today.
on Jun 29, 2004
Fahrenheit 9/11's success or failure will provide a good measure of the political temperature of the United States. In my mind, Michael Moore is a villain. An unscrupulous opportunist who brings new meaning the to the phrase "the end justifies the means".


This statement is retarded. Michael Moore is not a villian. Osama bin Laden is a villian. Michael Moore is just a partisan you disagree with. If you condemn Mr. Moore, you'll need to condemn others such as Ann Coulture, Rush Limbaugh, and Sean Hannity for doing far worse exaggerations and outrageously bold lies, as well as the Republican House of Representatives for wasting our time several years ago with the Clinton Impeachement.

Michael Moore is no worse or better than a host of 'attack dogs' on both sides of the spectrum, Much like Mr. Al Franken, Michael Moore relies on true statements and humor to make his vitriolic attacks. That the truths they use can be skewed more than one way is the essence fof political discourse. While I yearn to see a more civil discourse and for people to remember that political opponents are not your mortal enemy, I also accept that for now this is the nature of things. If you don't like what Mr. Moore has to say, that is fine. We are Americans, and we love to disagree. Calling him a villian, however, is doltish.
on Jun 29, 2004
And yes, the irony in the above statement is intentional.
on Jun 29, 2004

What I find doltish is half-witted people like you demanding that their semantical constructs be the end all be all definitions.

Just because my definition of what constitutes a villain has a lower threshold than yours doesn't make me a "dolt". I would cay that Bin Laden is a monster, not merely a villain.  One doesn't have to be a mass murderer, in my book, to be a villain.

Michael Moore, like Franken, takes statistics and facts and then twists them to reach bizarre conclusions.  They are both villains in my opinion. Just like I think Anne Coulter is a villain for her disgusting defense of McCarthy in her trashy "Treason" book.

I consider Moore (like Coulter) a litmus test. Those who buy into his (or her's) twisted view on the world are weak minded IMO. People who have become so partisan that they just lap up propaganda without recognizing what it is.  It makes one recognize how monsters like Goebels could brainwash so many people with his propaganda. It just takes weak minded people willing to believe any nasty thing about their ideological opponents to move them further.

on Jun 29, 2004
What bothers me is that some people think that because Michael Moore's movie received good reviews (none for journalistic integrity or factual content), that it's message is valid. I understand why somebody would like the movie for entertainment purposes, but those who like the movie for anything more are no better than somebody who'd watch "Space Balls" (a great movie with a compelling story) to confirm that their beliefs about space travel and space politics are true.
on Jun 29, 2004
What I find doltish is half-witted people like you demanding that their semantical constructs be the end all be all definitions.


If you are going to hurl insults at individuals, you must recognize that these phrases mean different things to different peoples. A failure to recognize this (in a great many peoples- myself included at times) is in part whatt has lead to our sorry political climate. That, in turn, increases rancor and turns legitimate debate into personal attack, as my example above shows.

You can criticize the work, and even the man's opinions, without villifying him. Taking that step to villify the individual both brings you into the same league as he (launching what seem to be partisan attacks while only half-informed or with a skewed basis from which to argue.) Attacking the messanger as well as the message forces people to switch from discussing the matter to discussing the person, which then becomes a case of "is he on my team or not."

I apologize for using words like 'doltish' and 'retarded' in my previous post, but they seem to have made my point abundantly clear- assaulting the messanger needlessly turns what could be a legitimate debate into a name-calling fracas.

Turning to the matter of the debate rather than ruminating on the sad state of discourse in American politics, the statement that I must most strongly disagree with is:


According to Moore, Saddam's Iraq was no threat to any American. Really? Is this the same Saddam who tried to have Bush Sr. assassinated? The same Iraq that regularly fired on US planes patrolling the no-fly zone? Is Moore so out of touch with the "average American" that he can't see how many of us considered Saddam a long term threat that could no longer be tolerated in a post-9/11 world?


The simple fact is Saddam WAS NOT a threat to the United States. Every piece of declassified intelligence that I have read on the matter clearly points to the fact that the embargo and sanctions had effectively contained Saddam. Almost every Intelligence official that I have heard speak on the matter says that Iraq was incapable of doing anything directly against us. The assassination plot that you mentioned was foiled by the Kuwaitis. If Kuwait, not known as a powerhouse in Intelligence circles, was able to keep Saddam's dreams of revenge in check, I think it safe to say that we had little to fear from him.

Now, that's not to say I didn't support the removal of Hussein. I actually support the idea of America exporting democracy to other countries. I would like to see us forcefully confront the military junta in Myanmar and force them to cede power to Aung San Suu Kyi and her democratically-elected government. I want us to do things like this because it is the right and moral thing to do. While I never believed that Iraq was an imminant threat (well, maybe for five minutes after the Powell presentation in the UN), I did support the notion of forcing the man from office. I considered it shameful how the elder Bush abandoned the Kurdish and Shiite rebellion that he encourages after the first Gulf War, and felt we owed it to them to finish the job. Now was not the time, though.

We left Afghanistan unfinished, and should have focused our full military strength in there- rooting out the remnants of al-Qaida and the Taliban, hunting down and capturing Osama bin Laden, breaking up the warlord's stranglehold on much of the country, and rebuilding the country like we promised. Instead, we went on a poorly thought-out and completely unnecessary military adventure. The Bush administration used a dishonoest bill of goods to sell the American people on it, they failed to adaquately plan for the aftermath of the war, and the created a situation in Iraq that served to make the state a greater threat to American security than we would have faced would we have left them alone. We fractured our alliances with Europe and the middle east, spent all of our political capital won in the aftermath of 9/11 on Iraq rather than al-Qaida, and have precious little to show for it as a nation other than a balooning debt and a long-term military commitment that will prevent us from being able to put our full might against our true enemy for up to a decade. What's worse, our misadventure in Iraq will eventually lead us to renegging on our promises to Afghanistan- again- which will only serve to further ruin our credibility in the eyes of the people whose hearts and minds we most desperately need to win.

Now, in this upcoming election, the War on Terror is actually not a top concern for me. I always vote on the economy, on healthcare, and on the environment. I do not see many differences in the approaches Kerry and Bush would adopt on the matter, and so quibbling over how they would handle that seems pointless to me. However, I think that statements that I believe are wrong need to be addressed. (As an aside, I think Gore would have handled the affair better than Bush ever did or Kerry ever will. He is a far more intelligent and thoughtful person than Bush will ever be, and a far more principled person than Kerry seems to be.)
on Jul 06, 2004
Draginol..

Have you seen the movie yet (July 5th)?

Come to think of it, have you even read any of of Mike's literature? ("Stupid White Men" or "Dude, Where's my country?" specifically?)

Many of the facts in both are backed up by the BBC and other 'honourable' news organisations, in another 'contraversial' book - "Bushwacked" by Molly Ivins and Lou Dubose.

Recommended reading for anyone Bush allows a vote to this time around.
on Jul 06, 2004
a) Talking about a specific subject you know will get hits due to its nature - possily raising awareness for commercial aspects (ie. stardock).


This is ridiculous, and you should know it. Everyone who's anyone is discussing Moore's new film - should Mr Wardell be denied this because he makes computer games?

Personally as stated elsewhere, I like Moore's style of film-making because it pokes fun at the rich and powerful, which as a middle class person is something I enjoy. After reading Moore's books over the last few days I can easily see why Draginol and BakerStreet consider him a propagandist - even as a strong supporter of democratic liberalism, there were many sections of his work which I know are extremely tricky with the truth. So it is possible to make these arguments without seeing the movie or by reading commentaries on it.

As for holding an opinion without ever seeing a movie, well, if you're anything like I imagine you to be, you probably won't go and see the counter-Moore movie coming out soon, but I imagine you too will have an opinion. I will never watch Titanic, but I know that I would hate it if I did. It's human nature to judge without direct experience.
on Jul 06, 2004

Patruco: Just because you say something is a fact doesn't make it so. 

But thank you for making my point for me about the far left.  You call me a "retard" and a "dolt" but then you talk about me hurling names around after the fact. And for what? Because I consider Moore a villain.  But you insist that YOUR threshold of what makes someone a villain is objective universal truth. Talk about arrogance.

But apparently that isn't enough for you. You then take it one step further and make the absurd claim that it is a "documented fact" that Iraq and Saddam were not a threat to the US.  Talk about taking something that is extremely subjective and trying to turn it into a "Fact".

I think Moore is a villain because he is a propagandist. And anyone who buys into his tripe I highly recommend them responding that they believe that way so that I can prevent them from commenting on articles I write that are more substantive.

on Jul 06, 2004
please delete my last post. It makes no sense out of context.
on Jul 16, 2004
Now, in this upcoming election, the War on Terror is actually not a top concern for me. I always vote on the economy, on healthcare, and on the environment.


Well for your sake I surely hope that there are no more terrorist attacks in America. I'd hate to see what that would do to the economy. Good to see that you have your priorities in order!
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